World champion?

[HorseKrazy]

Call me confused!
There is a possibility that I may be purchasing a weanling filly to add to my mish mash herd of thoroughbreds and warmbloods. I want her to be primarily a weaning buddy to a colt I have right now. Ideally, the two of them will grow up together and teach each other how to be respectable horses!

Here is where my confusion comes in. I primarily ride English disciplines. Dressage, hunters, 3 day eventing. I have dabbled in western riding briefly-I still have the saddle! . Ok. Back to my confusion. The breeder/seller is, as far as I know, pretty big in the halter and showmanship community. The filly I’m looking at is out of either a world champion mare, or a reserve world champion mare. If I’m honest, I have absolutely no idea what this means. Is this a title that is tossed around fairly easily? Can you earn this title at one show? I know I have tried to ask the breeder about it, but I’m so confused by his answer! “By my world so and so champion stallion, out of this so and so champion mare…” It seems to really be his selling point and I just don’t understand it! What I know for sure is the filly is 3/4 AQHA, but being registered with the apha.

So, can anyone help tell me what I’m looking at? Tia!

[clanter]

Well, it may mean something and may mean nothing.

We live in Ft Worth, nearly everything is western horse. Both my wife and I grew up with English Pleasure mounts. So we went back east to buy our kids a nice English pleasure horse (they are few and very far between here in the late 1980s), we were looking for an aged proven mount but I found a nice long yearling who was just real nice… so we left her at the farm putting her in training…expecting her to become an English pleasure horse but upon returning we found we had a Western Pleasure horse

And you know our trainer was correct, she was a very, very good western pleasure horse (res national champ, regional champ), as well as a competitive trail horse (national champ) , a working hunter and dressage horse (to some level of success) an all around kid’s horse winning many, many junior rider championships… but she was near ever, ever an English please horse even though her heritage was English pleasure

[Sparky]

There are 4 AQHA World Championship shows held every year–Youth, Amateur, Select(over 50), and Open. If a horse wins a class at any one of them, they are a AQHA World Champion. If they come in second, they are a Reserve World Champion. So yes, you can win these titles at one show.

[Bluey]

In AQHA, depending on the discipline, you have to qualify to participate in the World Championship show.
To qualify, you have to get so many points by placing over so many horses at other shows.

In APHA, that seems to be the horse you are looking over, I don’t know, you may be able to go to their World Championship show and if you win there, you are a world champion in whatever class you won.

[BayRoan]

To know if it means anything, you need to know which association bestowed the title and in what class.

The AQHA World Championship Shows require the horses to qualify by earning points at shows during the year and are very competitive. The AQHA Open World show holds classes divided by horses’ age (junior 5 and under, senior 6 and over), and all of those titles are a pretty big deal. The AQHA Amateur World Show and Youth World Show also require qualifying. Those titles are also a big deal, although not quite as big a deal as an Open title. Select (senior aged exhibitors) is the next step down in cachet. The Novice Championships are fairly new and not as impressive as the other titles, although still an accomplishment.

APHA (Paint) was not a qualifying show for a long time. There were rumblings about requiring qualifying, but I don’t know that it ever got anywhere. Anyone can show up and show, but it’s a pretty big deal, so if a horse wins it’s class, it’s likely of very high quality. You want to watch out for class names here. The Word Champion Tobiano (or Overo) at Halter was judged only on having ideal paint markings, not on being an ideal conformation horse.

Then, there are the color associations-- ABRA (buckskin), IBHA (also buckskin), PHBA (palomino) and PtHA (Pinto). Pinto has gotten quite popular and attracts a lot of cross over from APHA, so their world titles have more meaning these days, but the other color registries are generally not as competitive. Someone might have an AQHA halter horse that they’re saying is a “World Champion”, but it happens to be palomino or buckskin, and earned the title at their World Show, which is not as competitive and does not carry the same weight as an AQHA title. These associations also have “halter” classes that are actually color classes. Having a World Championship in Dun Factor is not quite the same as Junior Stallions.

[HorseKrazy]

Ell, I just got off the phone with the breeder and picked his brain a bit. His stallion was at least a world champion 1 time with the apha. I believe it was in the open division for conformation-even though he is an overo. He did mention needing to qualify for it, then the class was held in Texas and had 28 horses in it. That’s about all I got. Does anyone on here know halter bloodlines? The sires name is Mr. Sunday Kid and the dams grandsire is Kids Classic Style. Any insight?

[freshman]

The pedigree is chock-full of Impressive on both sides, so you need to know her HYPP status for sure!!! The filly should have already been tested for registration purposes and the breeder should already know for sure and be able to give you the test results and a straight answer. If not tested, which would mean not registered for some reason, this would seem wonky to me, considering the World Champ pedigree he is touting, so I’d be doubly suspicious if this is is the case. What is her registration status? At any rate, the breeder should be able to give you straight answers about sire/dam HYPP status and consent to testing, which would be necessary for registration purposes, anyway. Make sure to GET THE TEST before you buy or bring her home, at the very least, and do yourself and the filly a favor to make sure she is registered, or at least able to be registered, on your time/dime with all bill of sale, breeder’s certs and stud fee paid, and all required genetic testing/results in order at the time of purchase. Since she is an overo, you will also need to know her OWLS (lethal white) status, since this will be vital when bred, and you should know this NOW so you can be aware yourself in case you ever consider breeding her yourself and for future owners!!!

I very much hope to learn that I am very wrong about the situation, but please know that some HYPP+ breeders take advantage of folks outside their industry by dumping their culls (usually ++ horses, but some ± horses, too, but who knows for sure the motivation). I’m not sure why you are interested in a halter bred aqha/apha prospect since you mention a sport horse type program, but if you’re going to consider her, just know what to rule out before you bring her home.

[littleum]

With that pedigree the filly is halter bred (“lead n’ feed”) If you are looking for a riding horse, you might want to keep looking. Halter horses are purpose bred to be halter horses.

Of a more urgent nature: the filly’s sire is N/H (APHA publishes a list of all their N/H stallions and his name is on it), and the filly’s damsire is N/H.

There is AT least a 50% chance the filly is N/H (N/H horses will show symptoms and can die, so being a carrier is not like being LWO+ where LWO+ is harmless unless it’s homozygous), and if her dam was N/H, chances are she is N/H or even H/H.

You need to ask the breeder what this filly’s HYPP status is. If for whatever reason they do not have her HYPP status yet, ask what her dam’s HYPP status is. If they are not forthcoming, run away.

You may also want to seriously consider the ethics of supporting breeders who knowingly and willingly breed N/H horses and perpetuate a genetic mutation that can and will kill in it’s hetrozygous form.

HYPP is not like LWO, where LWO+ is harmless and it’s the homozygous form that is lethal. HYPP N/H (hetrozygous) horses can be symptomatic and can die, just like a H/H horse can. HYPP can be managed to a degree but even with management the horse can have an episode and die. HYPP horses have gone down on top of people, or while being ridden.

[craz4crtrs]

Keep looking…

[Bluey]

Here is more on HYPP and OWLS, if you are not familiar with those:

http://www.bringinglighttohypp.org/

If that horse is not tested, I would stay away completely from anyone that breeds untested horses.
Don’t accept any excuses at all.
Not fair to the horses that will have to live and die with those serious and fatal and easily preventable diseases.

If they tell you the horse has been tested, don’t take anyone’s word for it, ask for proof that it is truly N/N, if it has any Impressive other than N/N anywhere in it’s pedigree, no matter how far back.

[ladyj79]

For AQHA, HYPP testing is now mandatory, results are listed on papers, and HYPP positive are no longer being registered…although this is being litigated at present.

I am not sure about HYPP testing in APHA, but it certainly couldn’t hurt to contact the registry.

[Chuckles]

APHA does not require hypp testing. To qualify for the open world show, is is a matter of how many times shown in a particular period of time, not on points earned. If the foal is solid (I don’t know my genetics well enough to say is she could be), the owner may be offering her for sale at a reduced price. However, unless you are highly interested in her, I would pass. If you are, get her tested.
I have owned N/N grand babies of Impressive. Very nice horses, and it never worried me that they had that bloodline. I would pass on an N/H personally.

[HorseKrazy]

[QUOTE=freshman;7668504]
The pedigree is chock-full of Impressive on both sides, so you need to know her HYPP status for sure!!! The filly should have already been tested for registration purposes and the breeder should already know for sure and be able to give you the test results and a straight answer. If not tested, which would mean not registered for some reason, this would seem wonky to me, considering the World Champ pedigree he is touting, so I’d be doubly suspicious if this is is the case. What is her registration status? At any rate, the breeder should be able to give you straight answers about sire/dam HYPP status and consent to testing, which would be necessary for registration purposes, anyway. Make sure to GET THE TEST before you buy or bring her home, at the very least, and do yourself and the filly a favor to make sure she is registered, or at least able to be registered, on your time/dime with all bill of sale, breeder’s certs and stud fee paid, and all required genetic testing/results in order at the time of purchase. Since she is an overo, you will also need to know her OWLS (lethal white) status, since this will be vital when bred, and you should know this NOW so you can be aware yourself in case you ever consider breeding her yourself and for future owners!!!

I very much hope to learn that I am very wrong about the situation, but please know that some HYPP+ breeders take advantage of folks outside their industry by dumping their culls (usually ++ horses, but some ± horses, too, but who knows for sure the motivation). I’m not sure why you are interested in a halter bred aqha/apha prospect since you mention a sport horse type program, but if you’re going to consider her, just know what to rule out before you bring her home.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for all the excellent information! I do already have a AQHA mare, who I bought as a long yearling 12 years ago, who is hypp neg. I can honestly say I was not even thinking of this, so that was an excellent reminder! The filly is said to be registerable through APHA-even though she is mostly AQHA. It seemed to me that the breeder was not keen on paying the fees to double register his stallion, even though he is said to be ellidgeable.

As far as why I am interested in her at all. Well, I was tossing around the best possible options that I have when it comes time to wean my colt (soon to be gelding). From what many other experienced breeders have suggested, I would be best served by getting my colt a weanling of similar age to buddy up with, instead of trying to put him in with any of my other adult horses. The breeder of this filly lives right down the road from me and has let me know previously that he would be willing to let a few solid colts he had bred go “for cheap” (about $1,000). I was hoping there would be some of those colts available this year that I could raise with my colt. Of course there aren’t.

My preference would be a feed lease situation for a year, because i am not super excited about having to buy something for this purpose. So, I am still looking for something like that to make itself available to me, before I pull the trigger and buy. If that perfect situation does not show up, then I like to know that I have an option to buy something that is close and would be a fit with my family.

[HorseKrazy]

[QUOTE=littleum;7668551]
With that pedigree the filly is halter bred (“lead n’ feed”) If you are looking for a riding horse, you might want to keep looking. Halter horses are purpose bred to be halter horses.

Of a more urgent nature: the filly’s sire is N/H (APHA publishes a list of all their N/H stallions and his name is on it), and the filly’s damsire is N/H.

There is AT least a 50% chance the filly is N/H (N/H horses will show symptoms and can die, so being a carrier is not like being LWO+ where LWO+ is harmless unless it’s homozygous), and if her dam was N/H, chances are she is N/H or even H/H.

You need to ask the breeder what this filly’s HYPP status is. If for whatever reason they do not have her HYPP status yet, ask what her dam’s HYPP status is. If they are not forthcoming, run away.

You may also want to seriously consider the ethics of supporting breeders who knowingly and willingly breed N/H horses and perpetuate a genetic mutation that can and will kill in it’s hetrozygous form.

HYPP is not like LWO, where LWO+ is harmless and it’s the homozygous form that is lethal. HYPP N/H (hetrozygous) horses can be symptomatic and can die, just like a H/H horse can. HYPP can be managed to a degree but even with management the horse can have an episode and die. HYPP horses have gone down on top of people, or while being ridden.[/QUOTE]

Thank you you for your reply, could you please clarify what n/h is? I am familiar with hypp casually (my mare is an AQHA) but I’m not sure what these abbreviations are. Tia

[HorseKrazy]

Thanks everyone for the great info…it’s sounding like I’m almost certainly going to walk from this one. I don’t like shady scenarios, and this one is starting to concern me. I was hoping it would be a quick fix to a problem I was having, but I am starting to really think I should be following my gut on this one. It’s just so sad. I feel like upgrading this little cutie, but do not want to risk my herd…

the search continues!

[littleum]

[QUOTE=HorseKrazy;7669219]
Thank you you for your reply, could you please clarify what n/h is? I am familiar with hypp casually (my mare is an AQHA) but I’m not sure what these abbreviations are. Tia[/QUOTE]

N/H means the horse is a HYPP carrier (1 copy of the gene, the horse has the condition, can have attacks/symptoms, and has a 50% chance to pass it on to offspring)

H/H means the horse is HYPP homozygous (2 copies of the gene, the horse has the condition, likely will have attacks/symptoms and all of its offspring will inherit the condition as well)

N/N means the horse is negative for HYPP

[merrygoround]

"With that pedigree the filly is halter bred (“lead n’ feed”) If you are looking for a riding horse, you might want to keep looking. Halter horses are purpose bred to be halter horses. "

The combination of possible problems means run, don’t walk, away.

[HorseKrazy]

Thanks for the clarification! Crap. Back to square one! Oh well, better to know now instead of after.

[HorseKrazy]

Any reason why a breeder would chose to stand a stallion that is N/H?

[craz4crtrs]

[QUOTE=HorseKrazy;7669437]
Any reason why a breeder would chose to stand a stallion that is N/H?[/QUOTE]
Color.