Not a new article but just ran across it I think it has some excellent points. I agree that it sure looks like many fancy young horses being bred are not balanced in their movement and not only do I think they will not make the GP but they might not even stay sound. JMO.
http://www.horsesinternational.com/articles/breeders-talking-adelinde-cornelissen/
I recall reading that article when it came out last year. Nothing new…foal buyers/YH contests stress the front end, GP stresses the back end.
So it depends on your market. Not ALL dressage horses need to be bred for GP, since very few riders will ever ride at that level, so personally I see no problem in breeding for a solid TL-4th mount for ammies. Some of those horses could probably go on…some won’t. In 90% of the cases we will never know, because of rider limitations.
If a breeder needs to sell their stock as foals, they are sort of forced to offer what the market wants…which is (apparently), fancy front ends.
HOwever, with the thousands (10’s of thousands?) foals being produced globally each year, I have no doubt serious GP riders can find something. After all, new records are being set all the time, so somebody is doing something right…
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7839681]
I recall reading that article when it came out last year. Nothing new…foal buyers/YH contests stress the front end, GP stresses the back end.
So it depends on your market. Not ALL dressage horses need to be bred for GP, since very few riders will ever ride at that level, so personally I see no problem in breeding for a solid TL-4th mount for ammies. Some of those horses could probably go on…some won’t. In 90% of the cases we will never know, because of rider limitations.
If a breeder needs to sell their stock as foals, they are sort of forced to offer what the market wants…which is (apparently), fancy front ends.
HOwever, with the thousands (10’s of thousands?) foals being produced globally each year, I have no doubt serious GP riders can find something. After all, new records are being set all the time, so somebody is doing something right…[/QUOTE]
I started that thread awhile ago about are we moving in the right direction. I think if they keep approving and using flashy trot stallions, we are using up our mare base. And that is a non renewable resource if all the good mares are bred to the flash for the next generation of mares. And the thread was prompted by Donnerhall still being on the sire list. The record breaking rides are by older bloodlines. And on older mares. What about all the mares bred in the last 5 years? Will they be able to do the job?
Short version: I think there is more of a lack of good trainers for young horses than good prospects.
[QUOTE=camohn;7839852]
Short version: I think there is more of a lack of good trainers for young horses than good prospects.[/QUOTE]
^^^^^This.
For instance, SOMEBODY is buying all those flashy, leg-flinging foals. Who, if not riders? I know that everyone talks a good game about how the walk & canter are the most important gaits and how the hind end is what is important, NOT the front legs…but still…those same people are (apparently) rewarding leg flinging by paying HUGE prices for those types. And the various registries are also picking stallions who show this trait.
Obviously a very big disconnect here.
I’m one person who thinks it’s almost impossible to actually “see” a GP horses when it is less than a year old. Simply do not think anyone can do it reliably. There are simply too many factors at play.
Meanwhile, as I mentioned in my first post, a far larger % of dressage riders will never ride at a GP level, but they need horses too.
I think breeding is very important, but training is even more so…
I agree but if there is such a huge difference in ammy/PSG and GP in how horses are bred, that will be an issue. Normally, most breeders should have goals of UL with temperament being the thing they emphasize to sell to the ammy market. It might be you pick the slightly less talented stallion because he has an amazing temperament. And that horse still might make it to GP because he has a good mind. But if people breed for the big trot for the ammy market, then that is a huge population of horses that will be bred to be unsuitable for UL and might in the end, since the trot dose not necessary mean a good mind, be unsuitable for the amateur market. People do not always choose what is good for them. Amateur riders are not breeders or have UL knowledge, how are they suppose to know better? The stallion shows are loaded with 4 year olds with huge trots.
I guess I am saying that to breed 1 UL horse, you need to breed 25-50 UL potential horses to get that. If you are breeding for a different purpose, there will not be the “pyramid” to draw from.
And the registries are not helping by their stallion choices or the stallion showcases where you have the super prancing 4 year olds. It just encourages the buyer to look in the wrong direction.
There were still GP horses 75 years ago when the registries were still predominately focused on producing horses for war and transportation…
GP in the 40’s is not like GP today. It was more closely associated with it’s Calvary origins, which was being bred for. Now instead of the sport being a test of the practical use, it is an ends in it self. I doubt a horse that did well in the 40’s would do well today.
I think everyone’s opinions could end up being right…only time will tell.
Kyzteke could be right that even though many of these young horses are bred for fancy trots and excel at lower levels just by virtue of numbers a few great ones will make it to GP.
Sroicfish could be right in that if we don’t continue to focus on what makes some of the older blood lines successful at GP and only focus on fancy trots we will lose our future potential GP horses.
So who is right? Only time will tell…
I think it’s a real concern. Auctions and young horses classes do favour early maturing long front leg…leg flinger types. They are sure athletic looking and expressive, but most of these horses lack the strength behind to sit…REALLY sit. I have a mare with a super hind end, but have felt pressure to use a stallion with a prettier head…and a much longer and freer front leg in order to get a more marketable end product. I tried very hard to not lose the hind end, but you often do at least a bit.
I’m super excited about a young prospect I have in the barn that has a ridiculously good hind end. I bought him as a yearling…just had to have him. He has all kinds of sit and hind end engagement, but doesn’t have the balance yet to consistently carry his front end…even on the lunge. He’s 3…so baby steps for him. He’s been backed, and we’re riding him very lightly, but he’s too nice a horse to rush. I can wait. The problem though is many of us…and the buyers, can’t wait, or don’t want to wait. The early maturing ones sell earlier for more money…and sadly many buyers including some trainers don’t have a good eye for conformation, and have difficulty seeing the limitations or the potential in the conformation and basic gaits. They are better at assessing a horses by sitting on them, than by looking at them as young growing horses.
I don’t think the concern for riders like this is in being able to find potential GP horses but more about the potential scarcity of horses that are capable of an 80 % plus GP. And they are right to be concerned…horses like this are freaks of nature (in a good way) that have WAY more than good hind ends going for them.
[QUOTE=vandenbrink;7840908]
I’m super excited about a young prospect I have in the barn that has a ridiculously good hind end. I bought him as a yearling…just had to have him. He has all kinds of sit and hind end engagement, but doesn’t have the balance yet to consistently carry his front end…even on the lunge. He’s 3…so baby steps for him. He’s been backed, and we’re riding him very lightly, but he’s too nice a horse to rush. I can wait. The problem though is many of us…and the buyers, can’t wait, or don’t want to wait. The early maturing ones sell earlier for more money…and sadly many buyers including some trainers don’t have a good eye for conformation, and have difficulty seeing the limitations or the potential in the conformation and basic gaits. They are better at assessing a horses by sitting on them, than by looking at them as young growing horses.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like my girl a bit! She had a good trot up until 2 1/2, then about a month after she got to my house after purchase it disappeared… for almost 2 years! It’s just coming back now as she’s broadening in the chest, but I knew it would be back at some point, and her canter has still been great. The first time my trainer longed her and saw her moving he looked at me funny and said “her hind end is actually better than her front end - you NEVER see that anymore!”
The front end comes with time if the hind end is good, but it does take patience to wait for it!
Vandenbrink and netg, I have one of those as well. Right now she overpowers her front end, but I have seen at times what is in there. I think it will be worth the wait! From your comments, I am guessing this type will just be slower to bring along. Having a blast with her.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7839935]
…SOMEBODY is buying all those flashy, leg-flinging foals. Who, if not riders? …but still…those same people are (apparently) rewarding leg flinging by paying HUGE prices for those types. And the various registries are also picking stallions who show this trait.
Obviously a very big disconnect here. …[/QUOTE]
you’re hitting the nail on the head.
the key is not the lack of potential horses, the key is the disconnect between early deceptive reward of our (monetary) system vs proven quality under saddle.
our early high price system (foal market and 2 yr stallions at best) sets the wrong signs and totally unhinges the long maintained culture of developing and evaluating quality under saddle. proven values which only display in later years.
… for exactly t h i s very reason!
this is your well spotted disconnect:
1.while the market is getting smaller (50% foal production compared to 5 years ago)…
2. but the natural rules of producing excellence remain the same (excellence descends from mass and mass only, thus, excellence will remain a below 10% quota of output as it always used to be - rule of nature/bell curve, no matter how well thought of your breeding program might be)…
3. at the same time potential quality is priced up much higher and earlier in young horses and foals (driven by mislead reasons)…
4. the few remaining capable trainers and riders (who make -again- for less than 10% of the market) are already 50% limited to lay hands on real prospects for reasons of ttl production (due to decreasing breeding numbers) and they are forced to do so years earlier (quota of error increasing) because the platform for riding horses and viewing (potential) quality has moved from mature (evaluable) riding horse age (4-6yrs) to at max 2-3 yr old horses or even foal age (supporting the highest quota of error).
a dramatic development of coincidenting factors of contradicting results.
to put it in a tangible context:
i spend a lot of time with a trainer of intl status and a life time experience of spotting and developing horses up to GP. we speak of GP, not PSG.
PSG and GP are worlds apart (“the alps fit in between PSG and PG!” as a certain george theodorescu once stated). while many horses (soundness assumed) can be “made” to PSG by a capable trainer and rider within reasonable limits (60% range of domestic comeptition scores) a potential GP horse (70%plus) requires different additional qualities (soundness assumed).
i am not speaking hind end and gaites. those are only few visible features for some (and most get mislead), but don’t make up for the complete GPhorse.
the major difference between a PSG horse and a potential GP horse is made up by mind, spirit and “gas”/power. these horses virtually just start getting “warm” after a few flying changes and half pirouettes and this is when the real work begins. usually at this point, 90% of all the others (PSG) strech their wings and fade.
to find out about such distinct quality of a horse takes time. an experienced trainer gains a realistic view no earlier than age 5-6 when intial talent and spirit for passage and consequently piaffe can be viewed (soundness assumed) and provided the horse has been schooled consequently since 3-4.
and this is where the disconnect sets in.
the trainer used to avoid foal market and specially the 2yr stallion / preselection market for very valid reasons.
the stallion market today is ridiculously overpriced and professional preparation for stallion market has specialised so badly that you usually only know weeks later what you’ve got. reason you never hear again from many high priced colts in our stallion circus. they have reached their mental and physical max age 2 1/2 and are worn out, either physically broken or so well prepped that what they showed at the stallion market was a spectacle owed to professional preparation rather than realistic abilities.
today the trainer says he is forced to
a) either buy into the stallion market already putting an unreasonable amount of money at risk (running a high risk of “grab bag”), still elaborating a further 2-4 year horizon (incl risk&costs), until he knows for sure if the horse in question will ever make up for a potential GP horse, or
b) he needs to buy foals in higher numbers to raise himself being able to make up for a potential 10%quota of excellence, visible in later age. again, incl a long time horizon requested to be funded.
question of individual break even:
50-100k for a 2-3 yr prospectus incl addtl risk of being deceived by professional preparation or 10 x 5-10k (same starting capital) incl longer time span to be funded and 9 o/o 10 to be culled or sold as well trained riding horses during the cause of later years (requiring an addtl 5-8 x work effort, since usually 30% of our foal production never makes it under saddle for various reasons, anyway).
this is the current scenario for trainers / riders to lay hands on GP prospectuses and i find it a very comprehensive one to understand.
it replaces the scenario from years ago when a solid foal market made up for a healthy span of average prices 5-10k, allowing for a handful of better priced highlights, yet providing for cost covering prices (3k) even for less spectacular foals since at that point in time, the riding horse market was of healthy structure for any kind of horse, too:
3-5 yr old horses sold in a cost covering span (>10k) while highlights were better priced but marketed at a reasonable healthy age, too:
nothing wrong paying 100k plus for a 4-6 yr old sound horse under saddle that can be ridden and FELT under saddle to really come up with a valid opinion.
key is:
it was still cost covering to develop “normal” looking horses for breeders and riders to make them available for later prove.
so, today, what would you do if you were a capable rider / trainer without sponsoring links to the Glocks and Bluehorses of the world?
i’ld say what cornelissen said is right on.
valuable riding/dressage horse features have become less and less attractive for breeders to breed for since there is no cost covering market for riding horses anymore (you need to develop ten in order to find the one!).
knowledge of breeders and breeding culture has changed dramatically (from old farmers and horsemen culture to -understandable- fast money and internet breeding).
potential turn out of 10% quota of excellence (features cornelissen names) has already reduced in ttl numbers (due to 50% decrease of breeding numbers) and at the same time desired breeding features have shifted big time to satisfy the foal market.
now take a look at the intl GP riders of this world.
there are two sorts of professionals:
those who live from producing horses and trade, and those who produce horses for their very personal need and olympic demand.
no surpise, people like cornelissen or isabell werth (belonging to the latter group) acquire horses like bella rose at age 3 when noone else wanted them (i hadn’t wanted her when i saw her at the mare inspection…) and she got lucky. same is true for all her other current GP prospectuses (and trust me, you didn’t want to have bred most of her other horses at young age, either).
these people have no other chance but buying (too) young at high risk age since the cost covering market of reasonable aged prospectuses (4-6) is not existing anymore. “normal” looking young horses of potential later quality are bearly developed anymore while half the early promising male ones have been destroyed due to our early selection system, the other half of early promising female ones are evenly uinder fire no later than 3-4 at the young horse championships (PAVO cup, Bundeschampionat warendorf, WEGverden etc). this is were the decreasing number of higher quality horses nowadays are made exclusive for the Glocks and bluehorses of the world (and even these later often fail, too).
i’ld call the current scenario a true disconnect of basis (breeding values, developing, marketing) and high level demand for the remaining ten percent of trainers and riders who really know to tell a PSG horse from a GP horse.
Kyzteke couldn’t have found any better word for it.
Well said Fannie Mae, great post.
[QUOTE=out west;7841755]
Vandenbrink and netg, I have one of those as well. Right now she overpowers her front end, but I have seen at times what is in there. I think it will be worth the wait! From your comments, I am guessing this type will just be slower to bring along. Having a blast with her.[/QUOTE]
Yes that’s exactly it, he overpowers his front end, and then occasionally I get a few strides of WOW!!! when he lifts and really reaches with his front legs as well. The trot completely changes. Under saddle he feels imbalanced in the turns and he’s still quite narrow in front like Netgs horse. He’s by Special D out of a very nice Farrington mare and has a super brain. I love him so much I’ve bred one of my mares to Special D this year, and will breed another this coming year.
Do you guys mind sharing photos and/or videos of horses that you consider have great hind ends from weanlings to older horses? Maybe comparisons to weaker hind ends? GP vs PSG horses? I’d really like to expand my knowledge on this since one day I would like to buy a horse to train to Grand Prix, not just PSG. I felt I’d post here first instead of a new thread because I thought comparing the differences in potential added to the topic. If I’m wrong please let me know so I can just have people message me or start a new topic!
[QUOTE=Donella;7842120]
Well said Fannie Mae, great post.[/QUOTE]
I second your comment and commend Fannie Mae for a great post.
It is even more appreciated because it is written by an experienced breeder who has an inside look at the dressage “business” in arguably the top sporthorse breeding country in the world.
Even as a “baby breeder” I have noticed this “disconnect” growing. I have only been breeding WBs for about 15-16 yrs and haven’t produced a ton of horses.
Yet when I read/hear all the hallowed advice from both accomplished dressage riders & breeders, then watch the stallion testing & foal auctions, I have to scratch my head, because the two areas simply don’t match.
Even more puzzling to me is the way everyone (breeders) jumps on the stallion d’jour before he’s produced even Foal #1. THAT I really don’t get.
Not only do we not know if This Year’s Licensing Champion can make it to GP, we don’t know if he can produce it either.
Example: Both Sezun & Follow Me are very young stallions, with only afew foals on the ground. Sezun’s stud fee for ONE DOSE of frozen semen is $1370 and Follow Me is now up to $1090 (considering I purchased it for $730 this spring that’s quite a jump in price, especially since even with 2 attempts there was no pregnancy). Bretton Woods, another youngish stallion ( I think his oldest get are 5 or 6 this year) is $1650.
None of these horses have produced ANY sort of proven dressage horse and the first two haven’t even produced any actual RIDING horses. Not to mention none of these stallions are showing at GP so their ability to “go the distance” is also unproven.
Meanwhile you can buy a dose of PROVEN frozen from good old Weltmeyer for $500, Ferro for $750-$1500 and Jazz for $1350. Everyone of these guys have been in the Top 20 of World’s Best Producing Dressage stallions. They have PROVEN they can produce GP horses AND do GP themselves. Even Negro, at $2000, has obviously shown his mettle in top level production more than once.
Here’s that “disconnect” again…why do breeders (at least the American ones) flock to the young guys when #1 they aren’t usually any cheaper and #2 they haven’t shown they can produce squat…oh, except fancy auction foals.
Just makes zero sense to me…and I doubt they are doing the dressage world much good either.
So why
Interestingly, the calibre of high performance horses has grown exponentially in the last 15 years. Clearly breeders are doing something right. Fannie Mae, I would be interested to know if this “foal market” phenomenon has been going on for a long period of time or if this is something relatively new?
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7842936]
Here’s that “disconnect” again…why do breeders (at least the American ones) flock to the young guys when #1 they aren’t usually any cheaper and #2 they haven’t shown they can produce squat…oh, except fancy auction foals.
Just makes zero sense to me…and I doubt they are doing the dressage world much good either.
So why[/QUOTE]
Because foals by Stallions Du Jour sell better…and faster, especially if you’re looking to sell them really young. I even think that at inspections your foal from the latest greatest new stallion will get a 2nd and 3rd look from the judging team. A good horse is a good horse, but a foal from the latest and greatest will get you some extra attention.
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