Now wait a minute!!! You apparently haven’t seen many nice ponies.
“Cadence” is a WB/TB/Draft cross. Her half sister is at my barn and is as nice or nicer. What I have seen with the crosses that I know is that you may end up with slightly more “drafty” gaits, but gain substance and soundness and a more ammy-friendly temperament.
https://www.youtube.com/user/daviessp26?feature=watch
Personally, they remind me of old-school warmbloods, maybe not so pretty, but nice, solid, easier horses in general.
BTW, still no comment on the OP stallion, just the cross in general. I can see why someone with a nice but hot mare would want to cross with a NICE draft cross stallion for a more ammy friendly mount. Although with a SH mare like the OP has I would probably just sell the mare and buy what I wanted rather than breed. She probably has more value for someone else as a riding horse or broodmare.
Why would anyone suggest breeding to a specific breed will result in specifically a good ammy mount??
Ridability also relies heavily on a horse being suitable for the job. Many vices come simply from a horse being asked for more than their body is capable of.
If the mare has temperment issues it highly likely that the op will get a foal with temperment issues since she is 50% of the equation and you can breed as cold as you want and maybe end up with a giant that is also tempermental.
Why not breed for both ridability and ease of movement?
There is nothing wrong with breeding to a nice draft cross.
The problem, however, is that the stallion the OP is asking about is not a nice draft cross.
Personally, I wouldn’t breed this mare at all, based on the OP’s discription. Her pedigree sounds nice, but other than that, the only thing going for her is a pretty trot? Sounds like the two most important gaits, walk and canter, are only “ok” and the temperament is described as “volatile”. Does she have a show record? I am just not seeing what makes her worthy of being bred. I believe the OP would be wiser to buy a youngster already on the ground with the gaits and temperament she is looking for.
I tend to agree with this. I will not breed a mare that is not willing to work and that does not have a good brain. Not all mares (no matter how well known their bloodlines) need to be bred.
[QUOTE=Forte;6766966]
Personally, I wouldn’t breed this mare at all, based on the OP’s discription. Her pedigree sounds nice, but other than that, the only thing going for her is a pretty trot? Sounds like the two most important gaits, walk and canter, are only “ok” and the temperament is described as “volatile”. Does she have a show record? I am just not seeing what makes her worthy of being bred. I believe the OP would be wiser to buy a youngster already on the ground with the gaits and temperament she is looking for.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;6766977]
I tend to agree with this. I will not breed a mare that is not willing to work and that does not have a good brain. Not all mares (no matter how well known their bloodlines) need to be bred.[/QUOTE]
I agree to a point. How many “top” mares are bred year after year that have ZERO ridden history? How many mares are bred simply to be breeding stock (based on bloodlines alone) and never become sport horses? How many lovely mares are totally ruined by the wrong rider? How many mares get injured and are retired to broodmare duty?
It’s a double edged sword, breeding horses to be big and fancy and electric then them ending up with ammy owners that can’t get along with them. But who says it’s a temperament issue? Lots and lots of top horses are notoriously difficult to start, but would you say they should not retire to breeding duty because while excelling at GP, they could not have been ridden by a ammy owner? What if that difficult temperament is the result of bad riding, and it’s simply a smart mare that is just sick of it?
So to me the question is far too complicated to answer simply based on a BB post.
Hum, sure is funny that the OP’ email address starts with “alliecattin” and the lair that owns the stallion is named Allie Vetch. What a coincidence! Wow the lady that owns a really nice mare and the stallion owner who lies both happen to have “allie” in common!
Yep, I am sure the OP couldn’t be Allie STILL LYING. Do some people never learn!?!
My point is that if you KNOW a mare is volatile, reactive and unrideable in fairly normal circumstances, then I see no reason to breed her. I am a breeder. I was a rider. I care about what I produce. I have bought mares that I later removed from breeding because they did not live up to my requirements. I won’t breed a mare that is not easy to live with and that does not display a stable temperament. Period.
Whoa! BUSTED!!!
In that case, if the OP is also the stallion owner, I’m guessing this thread didn’t go how she was hoping at all. Not only does nobody like the stallion, now people are questioning her wisdom in breeding the mare too. Ooops!
[QUOTE=Appsolute;6766987]
Hum, sure is funny that the OP’ email address starts with “alliecattin” and the lair that owns the stallion is named Allie Vetch. What a coincidence! Wow the lady that owns a really nice mare and the stallion owner who lies both happen to have “allie” in common!
Yep, I am sure the OP couldn’t be Allie STILL LYING. Do some people never learn!?![/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Appsolute;6766987]
Hum, sure is funny that the OP’ email address starts with “alliecattin” and the lair that owns the stallion is named Allie Vetch. What a coincidence! Wow the lady that owns a really nice mare and the stallion owner who lies both happen to have “allie” in common!
Yep, I am sure the OP couldn’t be Allie STILL LYING. Do some people never learn!?![/QUOTE]
Stallion’s owner’s USEF record is under the last name Helinski, in case anyone was wondering.
I must point out from my prior reply (that was not positive about the breeding in question), that I DO have a Shire/TB x stallion myself. I bred him myself.
So for me to see a thread should I breed to a draft cross, and I was negative about that, it seems ironic.
I would never breed my cross stallion to a warmblood or accept a breeding contract for that. While he’s not “heavy” and quite refined for that cross, heaviness breeds back in pdq.
Thus my decision to limit him to very, very good TB mares (outside mares now…I stopped breeding some years ago to my own mares).
While he’s lovely and talented, that was his intended use…for a 3/4 TB, 1/4 Shire for eventing, jumping and low-mid level dressage. And he’s been consistent in that outcome in his offspring.
That said, I had to hunt the globe to find the Shire stallions for my breeding program many, and those I did were top line horses from Wales and England (just imported, but no domestically bred Shires)…whose movement was very back to front and quite uphill. This was 20 years ago, of course.
It just “ain’t” easy, you really have to know what you are doing. And the mares I used were paramount to the success of those breedings. All but one of my TB’s had full TB babies that I could inspect before buying them. Wanted to see what THEY might throw. All my work paid off.
He’s made for TB mares.
You really have to do your homework on when venturing into the world of breeding in draft blood (I chose Shires specifically).
I have several outstanding mares by my WB stallions, Boleem and Argosy of breeding age. Never in my wildest dreams would I consider breeding them to him. They are all lovely and talented independently but I would just never “go there”. Too risky. As Sonesta said…could be breeding a mutt. Don’t want to encourage that to anyone.
Wow, what a thread.
I think folks need to remember that MOST folks don’t ride or want to ride WBs. Most folks can’t afford them and don’t want to ride "those” gaits.
Heck, I bred my lovely Wolkentanz I mare to a pony - the horrors I know…
Anyway, the breeders on this forum make themselves look really bad by being so… Snooty.
The horse in the vid looks like a sweet guy - I have no idea about the drama associated with him… but he looks steady and fun to ride. My guess is that the OP got burned using frozen and now is looking to live cover…
Anyway OP - ultimately if you are going to keep the resulting foal it is what will make you happy. I personally don’t appreciate drafts but I know lots of people who do…
so as a first time breeder all I can say is do a lot of research and then do what you think is right for your mare.
Good luck.
[QUOTE=sid;6767227]
I have several outstanding mares by my WB stallions, Boleem and Argosy of breeding age. Never in my wildest dreams would I consider breeding them to him. They are all lovely and talented independently but I would just never “go there”. Too risky. As Sonesta said…could be breeding a mutt. Don’t want to encourage that to anyone.[/QUOTE]
fwiw the nicest horses I have ever seen (all things considered, for an average ammy rider who wants to show) have been warmbloods bred to “other”. WB/pony crosses, WB/friesian crosses, WB/draft crosses, WB/Arabian crosses, WB/Iberian… you name it. I guess they are “mutts” but they are lovely, lovely horses and ponies.
I have breed a draft cross mare (clyde/quarter horse)…my daughter’s hunter jumper that won big in our area up to 3’ to a holsteiner stallion and got a very good cross. I am not sure I would breed to a stallion cross though…I picked Holsteiner as they are consistent in what they produce.
Mare
http://s149.beta.photobucket.com/user/DalEmma2002/media/Phyllis1.jpg.html
Stallion
http://s149.beta.photobucket.com/user/DalEmma2002/media/DaimlerApproval.jpg.html
4 year old mare from the above pair
http://s149.beta.photobucket.com/user/DalEmma2002/media/Dalaylaconfo.jpg.html
mbm…I’m sorry that you took me as being “snooty”. I’m not at all, as most people would tell you about me.
Was just trying to be “informative”.
I love the draft x’s otherwise I would not have gone there (btw, long before I got my WB stallions).
I was just trying to share what I learned and how important it is to know what you are dealing with.
If someone is breeding for themself with a lifetime home, that’s one thing. But the OP’s thread said “would you breed to a draft cross”. That was a wide open question and I guess I stepped through the door. The answer is not simple, and I didn’t expect to be chastised for what knowledge I have on the subject. And yes, the answer was lengthy because there are no short answers.
Bowing out now.
Sid - you were not among those i would call “snooty” you gave an informative and nice reply
mbm- I am not at all snotty about horses. But unfortunately I live 15 minutes from a horse slaughter plant and am aware of what happens to peoples breeding experiments. As I said, no comment if you are going to keep the results. But really, if you don’t like to ride WB’s (which is fine) then why the hell would you start with WB mare? And try to make it into something else. Go rescue a grade horse from a bad ending. Buy a lovely TB, get an easy going QH. But don’t call people snotty for suggesting that the OP (who came on a sport horse breeding board) should not breed a mare that she doesn’t like in quality or temperament to a stallion that has poor gaits and conformation. That is just good advice about breeding, regardless of the breed. I have a draft cross gelding that eats beside my WB’s. He has a great personality and actually moves nice. I probably saved him from life as an outfitters horse or cracker pate. I wouldn’t sell him for a ton of money but I wouldn’t use my WB mare to try and recreate him. I would go and find a horse like him at the auction.
And this is not the same as those people that put great effort into propose breed draft crosses. Bet they start with a mare of quality and breed to a stallion of quality. That is not the case here. If it is not the stallion owner or a troll.
