WTF Are We Doing?

[Willesdon]

@Jealoushe

A miss at a training level fence shouldn’t end your life.

Riding is a high risk sport. We all know that. Any fall might have catastrophic consequences whether at a schooling fence, or 5*, or the horse slipping when walking out to the school, or being chased by a dog, or on a youngster, or on a schoolmaster … whether leisure, dressage, polo, etc. Eventing is probably no more dangerous than other equestrian activities but an eventing fatality in Australia or Ireland or Germany is reported world wide while 2 deaths in polo in the UK pass unnoticed outside the world of polo and fatalities out foxhunting are habitually only of local interest.

Basically, fatalities in Eventing are amplified by the international nature of the sport, such that this thread has 2K contributions and has been going for years.

[Badger]

@Willesdon

Eventing is probably no more dangerous than other equestrian activities

Um, NO. Big huge NO. The ability of eventers to justify things like this absolutely astounds me. Quit deluding yourself. Eventing is way more dangerous than most or all other equestrian sports by virtue of the solid obstacles that produce rotational falls. It shares the risks you mention of all riding activities (a slip, being chased by dogs, a green moment, etc.) and ups the anti many fold by choosing to point a horse at a fixed obstacle of height that is known to be fatally unforgiving to horse and rider when things go wrong.

Life is risky. Part of living life is understanding and managing and balancing and minimizing risk. It’s personal choice how much risk a rider is comfortable in tackling. But denying that eventing is much higher risk to rider and to horse is completely delusional.

[Marigold]

@Jealoushe

I don’t understand how this is happening. These are competent riders over Training level fences.

A miss at a training level fence shouldn’t end your life.

This. For both of these fatalities, and others before them.

These riders were schooling Training level, not massive fences. They had appropriate experience to be doing so and, at least in the case of Tiggy, excellent coaching. As far as I can see, they were doing everything right. It leaves me confused, upset, and searching for answers I doubt we’ll find.

[Jealoushe]

@Willesdon

Riding is a high risk sport. We all know that. Any fall might have catastrophic consequences whether at a schooling fence, or 5*, or the horse slipping when walking out to the school, or being chased by a dog, or on a youngster, or on a schoolmaster … whether leisure, dressage, polo, etc. Eventing is probably no more dangerous than other equestrian activities but an eventing fatality in Australia or Ireland or Germany is reported world wide while 2 deaths in polo in the UK pass unnoticed outside the world of polo and fatalities out foxhunting are habitually only of local interest.

Basically, fatalities in Eventing are amplified by the international nature of the sport, such that this thread has 2K contributions and has been going for years.

I just can’t agree with you on this point. I literally have to go digging for details on deaths, if I even find about them at all. A lot of the time I have people messaging me who were at the event themselves. It’s more prevalent than you see in the media.

Accidents happen yes, but it seems eventing accidents occur at a much higher rate that end in fatality.

I am also not discounting other disciplines, but this is the eventing forum and this thread is focused on fatalities in eventing.

I stand by my comment that a miss at Training shouldn’t kill you. If it does, it should be a freak accident, yet 4, I think deaths in the last few years were people schooling Training level fences. Not freak accidents.

[Jealoushe]

Also still annoyed after all these years we still never get the details; what happened, what type of fall, what type of fence, what type of helmet and vest, etc. Even after allllll these years us riders are not allowed to know and protect ourselves for the future.

[DunByMistake]

It is very very tragic. My heart breaks for Annie’s family and connections. This incident leaves me confused and frightened.

It also infuriates me there likely won’t be an investigation. The only way I see to improve is for people to fully understand what happened so they can try to avoid the same mistake in future. I also wonder about some of the findings that came out in the Australia report re: first aid care in relation to this event. If an instructor is taking young working students along to cross country school, it’s possible they are the only one with any first aid training. Doesn’t help much when you’re the one on the floor. A lot of farms have remote locations to begin with and then ambulance has to try and find you somewhere on cross country field. That is losing precious precious minutes.

The company I work for does natural resource consulting so we work on a variety of work sites for a wide variety of clients. Before going to field, we have to identify hazards and develop a plan to mitigate risks. I wonder if that attitude needs to be adopted by eventing. Before going cross country schooling, everyone needs to have at least basic first aid. Everyone needs to know address of schooling facility and how to contact emergency services and manager of facility if applicable. Facilities need to develop safety plans describing how to get emergency services out to each fence or area and require users to have read it. I could probably think of more but that’s just a few off the top of my head.

[Jealoushe]

I really want to know if these riders had air vests on. I’m not sure why this is always a big secret. We need to know these things.

[Xctrygirl]

So as a response to the points that @DunByMistake mentioned, I was approached by an EMT friend recently with a request.

In the time before this request there had been a 911 call out to Boyd’s farm/xc course. As is a common thing many people were out on the course. So the ambulance pulled in and headed to the first milling group of riders they saw. Nope, no injuries there. Then they went to the next group… nope. FINALLY someone pointed further down the property and eventually the ambulance got to the injured rider. Thankfully it was not a life threatening injury.

From an EMT/ life saving standpoint this is not ok. They asked if we could all understand that once you call 911 you need to help the ambulance drivers and emt’s to be able to get where we need them as QUICKLY as possible. They requested that we should have:

1. A person to meet the ambulance at the entrance to the property, or as close to it as possible.
2. A separate person with the fallen rider on the ground (NOT holding a horse, horse could step on a felled rider) to assist as needed until ambulance gets there. (CPR, compression of a bleeding open wound, etc)

These two points I know would absolutely alter how many people I have with me when schooling xc. I think this is a real moment to factor in the seriousness of how we should be addressing being prepared appropriately for any accident out riding. And as a rider it does make me blink a bit about the risks we’re undertaking. And I think it’s a good thing.

Em

[Jealoushe]

@Xctrygirl

From an EMT/ life saving standpoint this is not ok. They asked if we could all understand that once you call 911 you need to help the ambulance drivers and emt’s to be able to get where we need them as QUICKLY as possible. They requested that we should have:

1. A person to meet the ambulance at the entrance to the property, or as close to it as possible.
2. A separate person with the fallen rider on the ground (NOT holding a horse, horse could step on a felled rider) to assist as needed until ambulance gets there. (CPR, compression of a bleeding open wound, etc)

These two points I know would absolutely alter how many people I have with me when schooling xc. I think this is a real moment to factor in the seriousness of how we should be addressing being prepared appropriately for any accident out riding. And as a rider it does make me blink a bit about the risks we’re undertaking. And I think it’s a good thing.

This is SUCH an excellent point. It’s a reminder too that XC schooling facilities should have an action plan for ambulance and fire emergency should there be an issue. They should also have maps available on how to get to each fence (like at the Olympics). I think if there is a serious fall, other riders should leave the course until the ambulance leaves.

[leighbo009]

I’ve been reading the engineering forums of them investigating all the different possibilities of what happened at the Surfside Condo Collapse. They have 6 pages of engineers looking that the building plans and speculating what may have happened. They have the building plans, they have photos from prior, they have found many new sources and are able to speculate on what possibly could have happened.

But they have some information to begin to make these assumptions, or decide others aren’t possible, or very unlikely. No they do not know what happened exactly yet, but they are speculating. They have 6 pages of speculation and information gathering. Yes this was a major major failure, that killed 100+, but eventing needs the same type of engineering analysis to prevent these accidents.

Here in eventing we cannot even speculate what happened to these people. All we know is “training level fence”. Why can’t they give more information on the type of fence and location? I hope someone is investigating these schooling accidents. Right now I don’t believe anyone is investigating these schooling accidents to the extent they need to be investigated. Once info is gathered, it should be shared to the public so that the public is able to make informed decisions on what risks they are willing to take.

If it comes out that this was over the same type of fence with the same conditions as another fence that caused a fatality, maybe then the course designers should not use this fence type.

Also, what protective gear where the riders using? What type of injuries did they succumb to? Was the air vest worn? Did it help or hurt? What type of regular vest? Helmet? I’m sure there is also testing that could be performed on the helmet to see if it was still protecting? Had it already had so many falls or was older? We know we are supposed to replace a helmet after every fall or 5 years, but how many times does that actually happen? If that was a factor in the fatility, maybe it would make more replace their helmets when needed? That may have us pointing fingers at the rider, but even a report with all the info from all the different falls (without date or location, so you can’t decide which rider the report is about?) would give information needed to make informed decisions. Does the USEA investigate accidents that do not happen at one of their shows?

[punchy]

As long as people continue to go xc schooling and compete at events, there is no reason for any changes to be made to formats and/or the un-systematic way injuries and fatalities are handled. Xc schooling is still packed, it’s still the Wild West; event fields are still full and still lacking proper design, footing, officials, etc.

[beowulf]

Anyone know which fence this was?

This is heartbreaking - every rider death is. This is the second rider death that I’ve known personally-- and for those who did not know Annie, this was not a bumpkin jumping above her level. She was a quiet, effective rider who was always a pleasure to watch XC. She was wonderful and kind. RIP.

[punchy]

So this is part of the problem: people who don’t think a fall at a training level fence can be fatal. How can you not get that a 1000 pound horse traveling at speed can botch an immobile obstacle over 3 feet tall, send the rider flying and landing badly, or falling and landing on the rider? Seriously— you think everyone is safe, no risk, running training level?

[beowulf]

Because training level height should not produce a rotational fall. RFs really come into play when the fences are higher than the horse’s chest – which most training fences are not.

It’s been years since I’ve read the qualitative studies but if I remember right, the risk for rotational falls (and therefore death – IIRC, you have something of a 70% chance of death if involved in a RF? I read this on this forum years ago) is - or was - statistically higher Prelim+ because of the height of the fences.

[ClassyJumper]

Wouldn’t that be entirely related to the size of the horse though? 15.2 hand horse going training vs 17 hand horse going prelim… 6 inches vs 4 inches. Should we all be getting giant horses?

Genuinely curious if height of horse is at all correlated to rotational falls at the upper levels? I feel like it is going to take a lot more force to flip a 17.2 hand tank, than a little 15.2 horse… but then again the smaller horse might be able to scrap itself out of a situation the larger horse cannot.

[Jealoushe]

@punchy

So this is part of the problem: people who don’t think a fall at a training level fence can be fatal. How can you not get that a 1000 pound horse traveling at speed can botch an immobile obstacle over 3 feet tall, send the rider flying and landing badly, or falling and landing on the rider? Seriously— you think everyone is safe, no risk, running training level?

That is not at all what I said. I said it shouldn’t be. Re read my post please. I said of course these things happen but they should be freak accidents. Not twice a month which is the rate we are going at now.

[beowulf]

@ClassyJumper

Wouldn’t that be entirely related to the size of the horse though? 15.2 hand horse going training vs 17 hand horse going prelim… 6 inches vs 4 inches. Should we all be getting giant horses?

Yes, it could be proportional but the average horse competing at Training / Prelim is not 15.2. Having competed a 15h horse (with pads and shoes) Training, very few went past his chest with the exception of the brush fences but even then, those are not solid and you are meant to pass through them.

[Jealoushe]

@ClassyJumper

but then again the smaller horse might be able to scrap itself out of a situation the larger horse cannot.

This certainly comes into play. They also will be thrown in a different manner than a large horse would depending on speed and weight.

But we arent sure because theres no data. Still. After a decade of asking for it.

[Marigold]

@leighbo009

Also, what protective gear where the riders using? What type of injuries did they succumb to? Was the air vest worn? Did it help or hurt? What type of regular vest? Helmet? I’m sure there is also testing that could be performed on the helmet to see if it was still protecting? Had it already had so many falls or was older? We know we are supposed to replace a helmet after every fall or 5 years, but how many times does that actually happen? If that was a factor in the fatility, maybe it would make more replace their helmets when needed? That may have us pointing fingers at the rider, but even a report with all the info from all the different falls (without date or location, so you can’t decide which rider the report is about?) would give information needed to make informed decisions. Does the USEA investigate accidents that do not happen at one of their shows?

This stuff matters. Part of me feels terrible asking these questions, because I can’t imagine how difficult it is for the family to answer them or think about this in their grief, but on the other hand I personally will always owe a debt of gratitude (and probably more than that) to Jordan McDonald’s family. They released detailed information about the equipment he was wearing in his fatal fall.

At the time, I too was riding in a Tipperary vest (that was not ASTM certified - I don’t think Tipperary had come out with those at the time). Thanks to the information they generously shared, I upgraded to a BETA 3 that week. It must have been so painful for them to go through the specifics and release them publicly, but they changed my actions and I think of him every time I put that vest on. I am so grateful to them for sharing that information so that others can try to be safer, in his honour. https://eventingnation.com/jordan-mcdonalds-family-releases-statement-on-recent-inquest/

[Texarkana]

Echoing the same sentiment as everyone else, the lack of info about these schooling fatalities makes it hard to understand how to reduce risk and keep everyone safe.

My perpetual question is are these XC schooling fatalities happening more frequently or less frequently than they have historically?

On one hand, it’s easy to say we are hearing about these fatalities more now thanks to social media and instantaneous breaking news.

Yet at the same time, there are plenty of other high risk equestrian sports that don’t seem to have as many high profile deaths: racing, steeplechase, fox hunting, rodeo, etc. I’m pretty deeply entrenched in racing and steeplechase, and I feel like I hear about more eventing fatalities than racing or steeplechase fatalities.

Because bottom line, these schooling fatalities scare the bejesus out of me way more than the competition fatalities. I don’t mean to sound callous, I just mean we can do a lot to regulate competitions to keep people as safe as possible, but how do we keep them safe while preparing for those competitions???