The most recent fatality happened yesterday, the family likely hasn’t even buried her. As far as social media, some of the comments popping up online are disgusting and can be easily found by the family. Who has again, not even buried their daughter.
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My understanding is that the issue is not “schooling fatalities are more common,” but “recognized competition fatalities have gotten less common” (because of, inter Alia, frangibles, better course design, etc.).
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That is very sad to hear. I do think sadly this is the norm for social media now. Best to scroll and roll. I hope these discussions aren’t seen as harmful.
But the competition fatalities have not gone down, sadly…quickly looking at my list.
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But what is the data that supports that claim?
I don’t think it exists. No one keeps data on schooling fatalities, especially not historic data.
Even our competition data is spotty.
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Regarding fox-hunting, which seems to be the closest equestrian sport with a wide range of rider abilities participating, and which seems to most closely resemble cross-country, is there any comparative data regarding injuries and fatalities?
It’s certainly not a low-risk sport. I know that it’s far less technical in terms of the questions asked of the horse, on one hand, but on the other hand, arguably there’s even more unpredictability about footing, weather conditions, interference from outside. It doesn’t “seem” like there as many issues with fox-hunting, but I don’t know if that is reporting or just perception.
One of the problems with determining what safety issues need to be prioritized are there are so many moving parts to analyze with every accident–rider error, rider level of experience, horse experience, horse fitness, course design, weather conditions, even the ride leading up to the accident.
My condolences to both riders’ families. It’s heartbreaking to lose anyone you love, but especially people so young and vibrant in the early prime of life. I hope they are emotionally protecting themselves and staying off social media.
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No hard data, but here’s my anecdotal contribution re: foxhunting.
In several decades of fox hunting, I only knew of one horse death and three rider deaths. The horse death was a fluke - the horse fell in a large open ditch, broke its neck and was killed instantly.
Two of the rider deaths were related to jumping, one, a very reliable horse slipped on ice and the elderly rider hit his head. Could have been prevented with different shoeing on the horse and better protective headgear on the rider. The other was caused by unsafe fence construction and a horse that subsequently fell on its rider.
In a similar period of time being aware of eventing, the number of horse and rider fatalies I’ve heard about are ten fold.
Again, ^^^ not to be mistaken for hard data.
Foxhunting is a bit like eventing in that it’s small and insular; and that a foxhunter in New Mexico knows other foxhunters in Virginia and Maryland, so if there is a death, or a spectacular day or some juicy gossip, it travels to all corners of the sport.
The biggest differences between foxhunting and eventing are 1.) speed - It’s very rare that foxhunters are truly jumping at a high rate of speed. Even if hounds are running, most of us have to queue up at a panel, pop over and then hit the afterburners and 2) - how the horses are presented to the fence. Foxhunters are not required to perform a dressage test demonstrating submission and obedience to the aids; most foxhunters subscribe to the idea that the horse knows their job and it’s best to leave them to it, pointing out the panel to be jumped and leaving the horse to pick its own spot. There’s no picking a spot and balancing the horse three strides out.
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I would imagine a lower than chest height fence might produce a RF if the horse was very close to the jump (buried)on takeoff and the jump was solid/ did not give …
Edited to add factor in riding at speed … if something slows the front end ( a too close distance or a misstep) I think the engine of the horse can certainly somersault over a lower height.
I can’t even imagine how the family is feeling. It’s unfair. It doesn’t even feel like enough to say they have my deepest condolences.
Yet at the same time, it’s easy to get swept up in it because it could have been any of us. And it has been us. Participants in this thread have suffered the same fate. That’s not an excuse for the egregious comments that happen on social media. I’m just saying we have to talk about it, respectfully, because of how it affects us.
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Thank you so much for that very eloquent comparison! It sounds like eventing could learn a great deal from fox-hunting, in terms of reducing risk, either in terms of spacing combinations, managing speed, and even training. I know some eventers do fox hunt as well as compete in pure showjumping and dressage, of course, but maybe some more systematic application of some of those lessons would be helpful.
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Some minor info regarding fall.
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I am going to be that person that says I don’t believe you can compare eventing and foxhunting in good faith.
Eventing is a much larger community, so by virtue of that you may hear more often of deaths. In foxhunting you rarely jump the type of fences that flip a horse (tables), you are not going from a gallop to a handy SJ canter four hundred times during your course right before a series of technical fences, in foxhunting the fences are typically smaller and less solid, you are not jumping 18 fences in a row, and you rarely do the types of combinations that kill or nearly kill riders.
The imperative distinction for RF is the horse has to catch a leg or their chest, and the horse has to rotate (usually in mid-flight) over the fence. In smaller fences, they are unlikely to catch their chest at all, and if they catch/hang a leg, typically by the time momentum carries them over the fence their other feet are on the ground. It’s the hang time in the air that matters as that decides the trajectory of horse and rider. If it was not a jump that required much jump clearance, that hangtime in the air is almost nil.
Everyone wonders when it is appropriate to discuss these things. But for the sake of those we’ve lost, I think it’s always important to immediately discuss it while the incident is fresh in our minds. I do not for the life of me understand why the inquest[s] are never made public (at least to my knowledge). We everyday riders are jumping the things many of those who have died are jumping. Yesterday I jumped two training level coops; today, I’m taking TB#1 XC schooling. And it’s one of those things that has been in the back of my mind since Tiggy’s passing – there needs to be so much more transparency about these injuries because we (as the eventing community) are jumping these fences regularly, and we can’t afford to lose another life. And we shouldn’t.
Jeffie’s jump was a fence that has been in the GMHA dustbowl for years. It was barely a training level fence. I have jumped it every time I’ve warmed up there. I’ve XC schooled at Stable View twice now. There are people on this forum that have jumped the fences that we’ve lost riders and horses at. That’s very sobering to think about and people ought to know, as much as it hurts, the details that lead up to these tragic events happening so we can prevent future fatalities.
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Sounds like a rotational fall. Really would love to know what helmet/vest the rider had and what tack the horse was wearing. I think these things would be so easy to note and compare over time to look for patterns, or learn what products may be safer.
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This is a great addition/expansion to what I said above, though it is absolutely possible to jump 20 or more fences in a day’s hunting, depending on the territory. The part about galloping then rebalancing into a SJ canter multiple times is spot on, however.
Rotational falls are not common foxhunting. The most common fence design encountered foxhunting is a coop; an intentionally forgiving fence that allows the horse room to get their forearm up even when taking off close, and that also allow the hind legs to slide over the top rather than getting hung. Most fences jumped foxhunting have good ground lines, and they simply aren’t the technical questions you’d see on even a Training level XC course. The most technical question/related distance you’ll see foxhunting is jumping across a road (jump out of a pasture, cross the road, jump into the next pasture) or in and out of pastures without a road crossing. (The reason why there’s always an in and out on a hunter course.) That’s it - that’s as technical as it gets.
Finally, foxhunting is NOT a competition. If I’m out hunting and my horse is tired/not jumping well, I can drop back to third flight or go in early, with no negative consequence.
I think a more useful comparison of safety records, and one for which there is data available, is steeplechasing and eventing.
Steeplechasers ARE jumping solid obstacles at speed and in company; they’re just not also expected to produce an obedient dressage test the day before.
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I think it would also be useful to know how the schooling session had progressed—were the accidents first jumps or after a prolonged session? In a group setting, there can be a lot of standing about whilst someone else (or several riders even) string together a few jumps—accident horse then put back into gear for its turn without truly getting their “blood back up”.
Out hunting, the pack mentality does wonders for instilling Forward which is often lacking if the horse isn’t truly in gear and that is what brought in the rules forbidding “standing jumps” if there was any height involved.
Sad days.
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I agree. I was also wondering what role the USEA safety committee might have here. Similar to the death of a very experienced rider in 2019 at a Morven XC schooling event, while this accident wasn’t during a USEA event, both facilities do regularly hold USEA recognized events. Does USEA look into this sort of accident to consider whether the facilities are keeping potentially dangerous fences on their courses?
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Sadly I think it is unrealistic to wait for the USEA or USEF to start investigating schooling fatalities (or even provide detailed public information on competition fatalities, apparently). At the same time, the local investigators/coroners have no reason to know that anyone other than the family is interested in the results. Maybe what we as concerned eventers need to do is form a grassroots organization to submit public information/freedom of information requests and assemble the data ourselves. In my area there are small advocacy groups doing something similar regarding traffic safety. Sometimes you need to be a squeaky wheel.
ETA: Sorry @beowulf, I did not mean to reply to you directly but couldn’t figure out how to undo that without deleting the whole post and then it wouldn’t let me post it as a general reply because it was too similar!
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An amateur advocacy grassroots group sounds brilliant. I am not sure if there is anything like this yet – I understand that some orgs investigate (it is my impression that Tiggy’s is being investigated by HSI?) but I do not believe USEA is involved in schooling incidents?
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I think that’s an interesting idea. But I wonder whether the local investigators/coroners are doing much of an inquest, or just declaring it an accidental death. I don’t have the feeling that they’d do the kind of detailed inquest/investigation that we see in the UK or Australia unless the family was suing the facility. But perhaps I’m completely wrong on that.
I feel like as members of USEA, we have some (very very small) amount of leverage to start pushing them more on releasing more information, at least for recognized events. Perhaps we need to propose a rule change requiring a full publicly released investigation of any horse or rider death at a USEA recognized event.
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Thank you for saying this so eloquently. These are accidents “at home” as it were. There are no grounds for any current organization to step in and what? Interview witnesses? …take pictures of the fences and the accident scene? Where does HIPAA come into play? Who has the right to know that, for example, in case #ABC123 the horse shied at a rabbit. mangled the jump effort, lost her rider then got tangled in the reins and fell on him, crushing him in his safety vest.
I understand why and how we gather data from events. I am not seeing how it’s possible or helpful? Useful? Doable? to knock on the farm’s door and say hi, I would love to know more about how yesterday’s haul-in person died on your course? Can I come in?
I mean, that is what some of you are asking for, right?
