I think that what I would like to ask the facility is: “Before I come and school or compete at your facility again, how are you going to convince me that your facility is safe?” In other words, if I know nothing about what caused the accident or what the facility is doing to prevent it from occurring again, should I continue to go to that facility?
I do not understand how it is not possible. Insurance adjusters do it all the time. We don’t need videos or photos of the accident. An impartial breakdown of the fence type, safety equipment, footing, tack, and rider/horse experience involved is sufficient enough to start looking at whether there are corollaries to fence/equipment type and rider death.
Believe me that the eventing community is small. If you event long enough, you know someone who was killed or died in an accident related to this sport. These are people you trained with. Showed against. Had clinics with. Chatted with at the food truck. I don’t think there is a single eventer out there who doesn’t want their fellow friends and competitors to make it home safe. And I bet, if you approached them with that singular goal, they would give you any information they could to help.
Obviously some tact is necessary. Having everyone knock on Stableview’s door, or the door of the deceased family’s, is not the answer. But some sort of well thought out approach would be immensely helpful to understand the hows and whys of these deaths.
I will say it again, rephrased: these are fences that many of us on this forum have jumped. When you look at it that way – “That fence is the fence Jeffie died at, Tiggy died at, Jordan died at, and I am going to jump it today” – it gets very real.
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So sorry to read about these losses, especially since they were doing something they (and we) all loved.
Just thinking out loud… where is the point of impact (horse meets fence) that triggers the rotation? I’d guess somewhere between the knees and chest.
What if the horse had a small crash sensor, clipped somewhere around/below the pectoral muscles, onto the bottom strap of the breastplate. It measures speed/proximity from immobile object, sudden stopping, increased pressure, etc.
The rider could have a “safety seat” (think like a seat saver, straps underneath your saddle to hold it securely in place). It holds a small airbag. Compressed air canister sits behind the cantle.
Crash sensor reads collision impact, airbag deploys.
I’d guess deploying to somewhat to one side would mean a better result than just hoping you generally get thrown clear from the horse. Riders would need quick release stirrups and fences on course should not have solid decorative items (large rocks or solid wood “sculptures) at the wings.
Better yet, also have a mobile demo “spring loaded” horse with some padded mats in a trailer to bring to shows, clinics, etc. Have demos and paid trials.
I think airbag technology is a good idea, but maybe there’s a way to utilize it in a different way. To collect all the safety data and try to predict every fall/fence type/rider error/horse mistake in every possible circumstance seems frustratingly difficult for all involved. (As essential as that information is.)
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Insurance adjusters have a vested interest and legal right to pursue information.
To be clear, I’ve lost friends to horse accidents. It’s very painful. I get it. I just don’t see how one gets what you’re after in a solid, repeatable, thorough manner. Where it moves from anecdote to data.
Here’s a real life application for you: previous studies of falls have indicated that vertical fences and open oxers on xc are most likely to cause horse falls, specifically rotational, which is why those fences are now supposed to incorporate frangible technology. Hence why there is also now a USEA frangible technology fund. It’s taken a while for there to be widespread implementation, but I think the vast majority of events have frangible fences now.
Maybe there won’t be anything there, but if a set of data has even the smallest chance of showing a correlation in the rider deaths and it’s something that can be changed, isn’t that worth it?
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I see the need for airbag technology - especially for rotational falls - but I’m not quite sure how we would go about it. I’ve heard of too many people wearing air vests and riding their horses literally down to the ground, and then having the vest go off when the horse gets up.
Yeah, that is a tricky design question due to the variety of ways in which horse falls and rider falls can occur. In some cases, you might want the airbag when you hit the ground after separating from your horse. But if the airbag deploys then, and the horse then steps or falls on top of you, you have no protection anymore because it already deployed. Or, like you mentioned, if the airbag is designed to deploy on separation you get no protection if you and the horse fall together. Airbags in vehicles are best suited to disperse your sudden acceleration/deceleration over a longer period of time, preferably while your position in the vehicle is constrained by a seatbelt, not to physically buffer you from blunt objects that might injure you.
I understand the desire, I 100% do, I can’t (at least yet) discern how it reliably happens. Reliably gathering apples to apples and accurately defining them separates apples from road apples.
The facility though would have every right to turn that around and ask " Before you (g) come and school or compete at my facility at all (again) , how are you going to convince me that you(g)/your horse is safe?" And thus venues are lost.
A pole on the ground or a hole can trip up a horse—if the rider takes/makes the same fall trajectory then disaster. Many of these fences have been jumped umpteen times by a wide variety of horse/rider combinations without serious issue. Even showjumpers are not immune with fully collapsing fences.
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Well said. Stable View has had how many horses clear that Training obstacle? Loads. And there are so many variables (dew/dry/hot/raining/rabbits)
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Maybe I’m not understanding what you mean but I don’t comprehend why this data would be hard to collect. A standardized questionnaire or form could be used to collect data. Yes the USEA or USEF would have to designate an employee to collect it but it’s not impossible. It would make comparing incidents quite easy.
It’s a fairly typical practice for any company with any kind of health and safety policy. All near misses or actual incidents resulting in injury are reported in the same format which makes comparing data pretty straightforward.
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To whom? To whom is Barn XYZ going to happily turn over x form? I wouldn’t. The risks outweigh the rewards.
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Yes, they could ask me that. They could impose additional safety requirements. They could require me to ride with a certified trainer, not just a “ground person”. They could have observers on the course and kick people off who appear dangerous. That would be fine with me.
Perhaps this fence has been jumped umpteen million times, or perhaps it is a brand new fence. We have no idea because we don’t even know what fence it was. That is part of the point. And I’m pretty sure the greater risk to the future of venues like this and our sport is not people asking questions about safety, but people dying. What do you think happens to their insurance rates after someone dies at their facility?
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But therein lies the whole problem of being able (or not) to predict exactly who is going to run into serious trouble. Facility questionnaires would need to be backed up by documentation on each & every horse/rider combination and their efforts over each & every obstacle. Brand new fences or new locations of an old fence might need additional scrutiny by a facility but short of a fence having repeated “near misses” --what’s there to flag?
A facility could have the most impeccable footing, fully frangible fences, apparently perfect conditions and yet, the fatalities occur even amongst the more experienced riders working below their max abilities (ie schooling training fences vs competing at advanced which has a whole other range of risk).
Whilst a groundsperson or “certified trainer” or many others would hopefully speak out to someone riding dangerously and help to rule those out, they wouldn’t have much effect if a rotational fall is underway for other reasons.
And yes, insurance is a big reason that riders lose access to properties with even tadpole-size fences to pop over.
Bolding mine. I don’t have answers to the rest, but HIPAA applies only to medical professionals and insurance companies. If I shout my private medical information in a crowd, or experience an incident in the presence of witnesses, no one is legally obligated to remain silent. Morally is another story…
At any rate, HIPAA would only apply to the EMS team that responds to the incident, the medical personnel at the hospital, and the coroner/medical examiner’s office. The venue and bystanders would be free to give details about the situation.
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Sure, I was reacting to the FOIA request in the prior post.
I have been the sole witness to a single car hydroplaning on the interstate. It crashed, burned to the ground and trapped the driver in it when his seat belt latch malfunctioned. I couldn’t free him. Others stopped, they couldn’t either. He was eventually dragged out of the lap belt, in flames.
With all of that, the photos that Ford Motor Company presented to me months later were of the wrong place. Their photos were.a good mile south of the site, directly across from entrance to a rest stop. I know because I left the scene and drove to the rest stop to cry and change out of my soaked clothes.
He died after 2 months in the burn unit, and it seems like I’m the only person who knew where it actually happened. Forgive me if I think it’s not that simple, just filling out a form.
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I’d like to see horses fully necropsied or examined after serious accidents/deaths to see how many of those horses have neck and sternum/rib malformations or check for other physical and/or soundness issues that might have contributed to the incident.
Sharon May Davis has noted oddities in the performance of horses with the malformations, one of her observations was that it causes horses to jump with a twist.
There may no connection but if there is then there’s a direct consequence to peoples’ safety based on the C6/C7 malformations.
If it’s found that a number of these horses in accidents have the abnormality and it’s the difference between them clearing a sticky jump versus not (and potentially resulting in the rider’s death), how many of us would be willing to continue on using that horse? Probably not many.
“These congenital malformations are likely to produce clinical and functional ramifications of the thoracic inlet, thoracic limb and thoracic viscera, with the probability of altering postural and locomotive function”
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Well, that would be one pretty useful thing to flag.
Perhaps there is something about the placement, color, or design of a fence with repeated “near misses” that should be improved.
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So, I’ve been jump judging a lot lately. Whenever these discussions continue, there is always the desire to place the cause of the accident on the jump shape, footing, etc. I have seen one near rotational fall and more than one near miss. In every case, in my humble opinion, it has been rider error.
The fall - rider/horse came on an open, flat stride to a downhill vertical (intermediate) that was slightly sloped away. Horse tried to put in another one and was unsuccessful. Both walked away unscathed but it was scary as hell.
the latest near miss - it was subtle. Horse was well balanced coming to a table and was having a great round. ALL the rider did was soften just a touch, lose their starch just a touch, and the balance tipped just a bit in front. There was a brief moment of ACK and the horse gutted it out and saved the day with spectacular footwork and effort.
I don’t know what safety efforts/changes can be made when success/failure can be one subtle move away. And yes, I am for safe fence design, proper safety equipment, etc. But I also see that there will always be risk because no one, no horse is perfect all the time
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Annie was one of my greatest and oldest friends. I think we’re all searching for answers. She was wearing a Charles Owens helmet and 2 vests—turtle and inflatable. Out of respect, I will not go into detail but say what happened to her was just a freak accident that could not have been prevented by her wearing anything else. I used to jump grand prixs and had a similar accident a couple of months ago over a vertical in the adult hunters—and remember those jumps fall down— but me and my horse parted ways before the ground.
They’re horses and we’re people. There are ways to mitigate risks and Annie did that, but I will say this: Annie was an incredible, talented, patient, safe, amazing human and equestrian. There are no answers. If there was anything to blame I wouldn’t be shaking my fist at the sky with nothing to be angry with except the fact that I’ve had to wake up every day since she left to a world without her in it. After spending time with her family today, I would ask that nothing but love be sent to them, and if you have anything to say please let it be kind.
Please be respectful of her, and know that she had many people who are left behind feeling awful, inconsolable grief and are trying to find a way to honor her legacy. Remember that her mother had to watch her die. Remember the working student who had to leave her there to take the horse home. Please, please, please.
I know I’ve made a mistake reading comments. I shouldn’t be. But think of the people that loved her who made the same mistake of reading these before you write anything. And keep on riding and jumping and doing the things that you love.
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