WTF Are We Doing?

[endlessclimb]

@Pennywell_Bay

So sorry to read this. I hope Rachel is OK. This was the only acknowledgment of it - AKFHT was silent on SM that I saw (if it is the one I follow). I guess I am suprised no condolences, hopefully I am friends with a different facility on the EC.

Seeing as how there was nothing even the same day or the day after, I’m guessing there never was anything. But we can all speculate together.

So, to summarize what I’ve learned here from the tried and true eventers:

1. It’s not ok to ask questions “too soon”. The time in which it’s ok to ask questions is not clear.
2. It’s not ok to ask questions before facts come out.
3. Facts never come out, because TPTB are not held accountable to publishing them. We are supposed to rely on second hand information indefinitely.

… do yall not see the problem here?

[beowulf]

I am going to post what I posted a few years ago in this thread when a friend and former boarder became one of these statistics:

@beowulf

Everyone wonders when it is appropriate to discuss these things. But for the sake of those we’ve lost, I think it’s always important to immediately discuss it while the incident is fresh in our minds. I do not for the life of me understand why the inquest[s] are never made public (at least to my knowledge). We everyday riders are jumping the things many of those who have died are jumping.

The thing is, you need to do so rationally and kindly. You cannot just put everyone on blast until you have answers. Several times on this thread you have harped over minutiae, incorrect assumptions, and things you don’t know – without offering solutions to the very real problem that is rider and horse death.

You can ask questions – and you absolutely should. The answers to these questions help inform your[g] opinion. For the sake of complete context, these questions need to go beyond “what is a 5 y/o doing Training?”. Questions like what was the FENCE like? Who was the course designer? Who was the TD? What was the lighting? How late in the course?

We (eventers) have asked for these findings of fact to be released. Repeatedly. What solution do you have, how do you suggest we get USEA/USEF to release these findings?

Perhaps you have some new ideas to get answers, because many of us have already tried.

[endlessclimb]

Don’t continue to put your horses at risk until they do. Stop the gravy train, and hold them accountable.

[smoofox]

@endlessclimb

Was the mistake in the USEA horse registration corrected? Do people do that a lot, fudge the age by a few years?

Why on earth is everything a conspiracy of some kind to you? It could be a simple typo. No fudging. But so much for all the ranting about 5 year old horses doing Training now…

@endlessclimb

I’ll wait for a detailed analysis of the accident from USEA. Or USEF.

Oh wait, that never happens.

We are always left in the complete dark, they give their “thoughts and prayers” and the next event rolls on like it never happened.

Uh huh. And you supply your own detailed analysis and criticism as if you were actually there, knew all the people and horses involved personally, and knew every stride of that course…

@Mondo

@endlessclimb

That’s not an unfair question. An animal is dead. If this were someone galloping their horse down the highway we’d all have the pitchforks out at the ready. But because it’s a sport that’s sometimes super fun and sometimes ends in tragedy, we can’t ask the hard questions?

I don’t think anyone has an issue with asking the hard questions. I think you arguing for the sake of arguing is the issue. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and you have stated your opinion more than once in this thread.

… and many other threads. Well said, Mondo.

@Bearx2

@endlessclimb

That’s not an unfair question. An animal is dead. If this were someone galloping their horse down the highway we’d all have the pitchforks out at the ready. But because it’s a sport that’s sometimes super fun and sometimes ends in tragedy, we can’t ask the hard questions?

I personally don’t mind a person asking hard questions or having different opinions, but those things should go hand and hand with empathy and understanding.

Exactly. But to quote endlessclimb - Oh wait. That never happens.

@endlessclimb

Well, it’s not there now. So they were so sorry for her loss that their lawyers told them to pull that sh*t down, I’d guess.

And again with the conspiracy theories, sneering and judgment. Do you not see how you are coming across here?

[smoofox]

@beowulf

I am going to post what I posted a few years ago in this thread when a friend and former boarder became one of these statistics:

@beowulf

Everyone wonders when it is appropriate to discuss these things. But for the sake of those we’ve lost, I think it’s always important to immediately discuss it while the incident is fresh in our minds. I do not for the life of me understand why the inquest[s] are never made public (at least to my knowledge). We everyday riders are jumping the things many of those who have died are jumping.

The thing is, you need to do so rationally and kindly. You cannot just put everyone on blast until you have answers. Several times on this thread you have harped over minutiae, incorrect assumptions, and things you don’t know – without offering solutions to the very real problem that is rider and horse death.

You can ask questions – and you absolutely should. The answers to these questions help inform your[g] opinion. For the sake of complete context, these questions need to go beyond “what is a 5 y/o doing Training?”. Questions like what was the FENCE like? Who was the course designer? Who was the TD? What was the lighting? How late in the course?

We (eventers) have asked for these findings of fact to be released. Repeatedly. What solution do you have, how do you suggest we get USEA/USEF to release these findings?

Perhaps you have some new ideas to get answers, because many of us have already tried.

EXCELLENT post, beowulf.

[endlessclimb]

Here’s the solution - have the fences fall down if a horse makes a mistake.

Yet many here are so vehemently against this concept, saying it will gut the sport, etc etc. with absolutely no regards for the fact that the horses do this FOR US, and BECAUSE we ask.

But nope, can’t do it, because it might be equated to a show jumping competition then. Screw the risks involved with the solid stuff, we can’t possibly do the obvious thing to make this safer for the animals entrusted to our care.

That’s the answer. It’s just no one wants to do it.

[Cowboy_Girl]

There are protocols for every industry and organization that has potential for fatality to its participants. I’m most familiar with construction and mining. I have personally had to notify family about their loved ones. There is an immediate media lid out on the dissemination of information so that medical, forensic and engineering professionals can perform their analysis in an impartial and professional manner.

You are acting like the worst kind of paparazzo, ambulance chasing, lead if it bleeds speculative reporter. But the death wasn’t a human, it was a horse, so you think you can get away with your vile, crassness. To quote:

[endlessclimb]

Youre right. Shut up, give them money, and just show up to compete. Shhhh.

[beowulf]

@endlessclimb

Here’s the solution - have the fences fall down if a horse makes a mistake.

Yet many here are so vehemently against this concept, saying it will gut the sport, etc etc. with absolutely no regards for the fact that the horses do this FOR US, and BECAUSE we ask.

But nope, can’t do it, because it might be equated to a show jumping competition then. Screw the risks involved with the solid stuff, we can’t possibly do the obvious thing to make this safer for the animals entrusted to our care.

The horse crashed at a triple bar (logs). If anything, that’s argument against using more SJ-y type fences on XC, because horses do misread them and sometimes think they can take a bad spot and be okay because the poles will fall down.

There is enough non-circumstantial evidence out there that points out that hanging logs/oxers can be misread as SJ poles.

I think you would have a better argument if you said eventers should study how steeplechase fences are constructed. Many of them now are made on hinge-type bases so that if a horse crashes through them, the face of the fence collapses.

However, it’s not genuinely feasible to equate a multi-billion dollar race course venue with Tim & Sally’s mom and pop legacy event, funded by volunteers and local competitors, and already on a shoestring budget. A single fence costs hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars to construct, and there is simply no way the average eventing venue can afford to replace their entire fence arsenal with collapsible technology.

[LSBC]

This is such an aggressive and unnecessary comment. I have not seen one person on this thread say that the fences shouldn’t fall down BECAUSE it might be equated to showjumping. Not once. Nobody has ever said that they cannot or should not do the right thing for their animals. Every single time this happens you argue against eventing without offering a valid solution. I genuinely do not understand your reason for being on this thread besides to stir up trouble?

As beowulf said, asking questions is fine, but that depends on the manner in which you do. However, you’ve been asking your questions based on wild speculation and jumping to conclusions in a rude manner without even sparing a moment for the poor rider who lost her horse. ANYONE who rides can be in a situation where they misjudged a fence (XC or SJ) or their horse tripped and went down wrong and they had to be pts. You singling out a discipline is just wrong.

[millerra]

I didn’t go up thread but I thought the latest description was a light to dark turning question to a cabin downhill 4 strides to another jump (?ramp)

There are 3 fences that give me pause

1. corners - hate the angled fence front
2. cabin - they seem very vertical to me until you get to the roof
3. open air (log) oxers - because one 5* horse tried to bounce one and paid for it (not like I’d ever jump anything that could be misread like that - not big enough)…

I thought the recent fence description - light to dark turn to a cabin down hill sounded very hard and easier to see how a bad outcome could arise than a ramped triple bar

[Bearx2]

I think what people have a problem with is that you offer sweeping generalizations as solutions and you don’t take into consideration that many horses and riders go around cross country courses safely, even at the upper levels. You want to fundamentally change the sport with no guarantees that horses and riders will be any safer.

[beowulf]

I think that description mostly matches what I was told by a witness. My understanding was it was an A/B combo situated downhill. When I asked what kind of fence the crash was, I was told a triple bar. The witness said that there wasn’t sufficient distance between A and B.

Publishing the details would restrict the speculation, considering even on this thread different eye-witnesses shared different things. I don’t suspect anything nefarious here - different vantages offer different insights, plus seeing something like that in person is genuinely shocking, and shock impacts your memory.

[millerra]

I agree - as a jump judge often what I report is at odds w/ the rider’s memory (recently, rider actually fell off the Left side of horse; she reported she fell off the right). And I may get it wrong too…

[beowulf]

Yup. It’s very common and no reflection of either party’s competence/intelligence. This is a high adrenaline sport! In the moment sometimes you are so in the zone you filter out extraneous details, to stay focused on the task at hand.

When I jump-judge, if SO is with me, I have him film each rider over the fence. It has saved me before.

[endlessclimb]

Well hemming and hawwing without any appreciable action is doing nothing, too.

Are we waiting on “guarantees” a horse and rider will be safer to do anything about anything?

I wasn’t aware of that. I thought some common sense things would prevail, such as “if the log isn’t solid, a rotational fall is much less likely.”

[endlessclimb]

There have been several commenters here that have expressed how if every fence had MIMs or was collapsible, that it might as well be a show jumping competition, or that riders would suddenly start running at everything because there would be no real risk.

I didn’t make that up.

Perhaps you haven’t read the whole thread?

[LSBC]

That’s not what you said. You said that it would be “equated” to a show jumping competition, not that it “might as well be.” Those are two different things. I still see risk with both things. We even saw a horse fall down in the last Olympics in showjumping. If you want all the fences to fall down, so be it. But I think there’s still a similar level of risk. Additionally, having frangible pins is not the same thing as having a rail fall in showjumping. The pins have to stop the fence from falling at some point, so realistically it is still an exceptionally more solid obstacle than a pole.

[Blugal]

@endlessclimb

I thought some common sense things would prevail, such as “if the log isn’t solid, a rotational fall is much less likely.”

Of course you did! Unaware that there have been multiple safety studies by scientists, over the past 20+ years, working in the issues of horse and rider safety? Unaware of the changes that have been made as a result of those studies, and continuing to examine, study, and make changes? Unaware of the yearly international eventing safety forum? Unaware of actual safety statistics showing our sport has reduced fatalities in the years after the studies and our application of new safety measures?

I guess we’re all just stupid for not thinking of your “common sense” solution!

[fivestrideline]

I’ll bite. I’m not saying anything new but as a card carrying amateur who doesn’t event anymore due to the risk, I would be VERY interested in published data about fences that caused issues. I like the sport and the people, but I don’t personally think it’s a fair ask. Also my horse is a clutz. Some data on risk factors of fences would certainly tempt me back to the lower levels with a cattier animal. Even just a list of type of fence, height, distances if related, and environmental conditions (raining, water jump, light to dark, etc).

Why is that not a thing? Is it because of the people taking wild shots in the dark with solutions that make no sense? Because of current participants saying they don’t want to change the spirit of the sport despite the risk? Money? Bureaucracy? I’m sure there are reasons discussed here that have been buried over time - is there even a way to propose such things to USEA?