Anyone who’s looking for a no-money sport that takes loads of effort and training and involves horses in a very challenging way is welcome to come join us in modern pentathlon.
[QUOTE=JER;8962492]
Anyone who’s looking for a no-money sport that takes loads of effort and training and involves horses in a very challenging way is welcome to come join us in modern pentathlon.
:)[/QUOTE]
Well it seems there is a vote to make me ineligible to compete in USEA events so I could be looking for another sport.
Do I get an AARP discount?
Do I have to mount from the ground??
can I wear a life preserver? Or at least those arm bubbles??
Excellent - thank you.
[QUOTE=JP60;8962244]
You are like my older brother. I recently told him that given the separation of years between him and me, we cannot really understand each other. He won, because I choose not to make a point that cannot be understood. Will this help, you are the parent, I am the child…you win. BFNE et al…you hold on to this ideal that professional know better, that leaders have the best interest of the sport in their hearts. You are the crowd when a child might say, the Emperor has no clothes.
I am but a child and…and this last thought then as hard as it is…I am done on this thread
"Does that mean I should be forbidden from competing at the LLs? "
Yes, yes it should. Should adults play softball with their children? Should a Pro Football player play sandlot football with some kids? Should Jeff Gordon drive go karts against kids? I do not give a crap if you are trying to sell a horse. I got the same stupid excuse from BFNE and she clearly only runs horses at the lower levels to move them up to sell.
No, I do not want you there if your only interest is taking some horse that you are going to sell up the levels. I bust my ass, I ride in the damn cold before work, I ride in the damn dark, I scrimp my budget to afford a trainer who will help me move up a level for the first time, I am not alone…and you come a long. Just another horse to get ready for sale…so sorry you didn’t place with a 30. I’ve gotten to the point where I can look at an entry list and know that we won’t place simply because I’m against trainers and expensive horses. Funny thing, I’m not so much about ribbons, but at 300+ dollars a show, I’d really really like to compete against my peers, not you.
That is not against the talent of my horse, it is because I cannot compete against people who do this for a living or have time and money to ride way more than me.
Sour grapes? Naaaaa…At the end of the day I really don’t give a shit about ya’ll who lord over noobs like me…and really…you do. I respect what you can do, but I’m hard pressed to respect people that use LLs as nothing more than training, ignoring the hard work, effort and heart that many many more put in to just getting through a course.
You don’t want to understand me. If you did then just reading the bulk of my posts would make it clear where I stand. At the least you want to diminish me for I don’t fit the model of “Eventer” in your mind. At best, you want to silence me for I upset the balance that is Eventing today. A sport that is now dominated by professionals influenced by organisations that have little concern about the base of this sport.
Me and Sterling, we got maybe five years. I’m guessing the last 3 will be Unrecognized and after that I’ll volunteer at what ever local event still holds a classic Eventing format. I won’t support professional jockeys, but I’ll support those professionals that still attempt to educate new riders what the heart of Eventing is all about. I will be grateful I got to experience the best of what was for what it will be…my prayers to the horse. [/QUOTE]
I’d like to add on a bit too. And I am in no way bitter or angry about this, but I am seeing it more and more.
Years ago, I was scribing, and Bruce came in to do his test. As I furiously wrote the comments, keeping up with what the judge was saying, I happened to look up and see Bruce’s horse blow a lead and buck. I looked over at the judge who happened to be looking down. I asked her what was her score? She said 8. I said, ( I can’t believe I dared) oh, he blew a lead, the horse was bucking. She said, “well, it’s Bruce, so just give him the 8”.
Now, I get it, not all judges will do that. But here’s the thing. Back then maybe 15 or more years ago, the pros may have had 1-2 rides in the divisions.
Now you routinely have pros with 6-8 rides, spanning all the divisions, many of the lower levels packed with horses.
And I can pretty much bet that the above scenario does indeed play out again and again.
Except with the numbers it’s happening more often. I’ve seen a pro place 1,2,3,4 in a NH or TH or even BNH division.
Nothing against the pro, but really? You got it right that much on ALL your green horses?
Happened to me this year. At a show that had ON divisions only. Pro had 3 horses in so the organizer, who I am sure was trying to be fair as possible, scatter the rides.
It was obvious that this pro was trying to qualify horses for AEC’s.
In my division, the pro had a BOBBLE. Horse took off, head up, careened about the ring. I had a pretty darn good test with no bobbles, my horse is a decent mover, we were accurate, had good collectives, etc.
The pro beat us by .50.
The rest of the division was 3+ points behind us.
I SWEAR this is not sour grapes, but that win, the pro probably has already forgotten.
For me, getting up in the dark, busting my butt, commuting, bringing lunch everyday so I can afford lessons, etc., etc. That win would have meant the world to me. Yes, the 2nd was good, and as far as USEA and AEC’s it was a 1st.
But it is a different sport with a different mindset.
I have always prided myself on enjoying competing against the pros, it ups my game. It still does.
But it IS different now. There is a different mentality now.
[QUOTE=JP60;8962244]
Y
No, I do not want you there if your only interest is taking some horse that you are going to sell up the levels. I bust my ass, I ride in the damn cold before work, I ride in the damn dark, I scrimp my budget to afford a trainer who will help me move up a level for the first time, I am not alone…and you come a long. Just another horse to get ready for sale…so sorry you didn’t place with a 30. I’ve gotten to the point where I can look at an entry list and know that we won’t place simply because I’m against trainers and expensive horses. Funny thing, I’m not so much about ribbons, but at 300+ dollars a show, I’d really really like to compete against my peers, not you.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Sorry that you feel this way. I don’t live in an area w/ lots of trainers on fancy horses but isn’t this WHY the amateur division was created? If the field of professionals is so deep, could you ask the organizers to consider running an amateur division?
Where I live, the field of professionals isn’t so deep but the organizers due a pretty good job of splitting out the rider and horse divisions…
I guess you could try it without pros-- that would be somewhere between 25-50% of the entries in this area for both recognized and unrecognized events. Plus maybe as much as another 10% who are unwilling to ride without their trainer/ dependent on the trainer for shipping but are unable to 100% cover costs if trainer is not also competing. I’m guessing at that point, everything above Prelim disappears, and probably all but a handful of Prelims. Most of the smaller recognized events that are just barely getting by go under. The events that are left increase their prices by 50% to make up for the lack of entry fees. That makes it too expensive for 25% plus of the remaining AAs and juniors…
Good luck.
Honestly, I’m an amateur and I’m usually one vet bill away from “completely broke” at any given time … so I can totally see how the “agenda” of the pros is at odds with what I want the sport to be – namely, somewhere that I can afford to compete with my $2500 horse, have fun, and be somewhat successful … whereas it fully suits the professional trainers to move the sport more toward the hunter/jumper type model because that makes it easier for them to grow their businesses and make a decent living. But it’s the nature of the beast, and I don’t think USEA is going to ban them from competing any time soon!
That’s why I’m glad there are the Rider divisions, and I don’t have to compete against Boyd and Philip and Kim at my first attempt at a given level. But honestly, is the playing field ever perfectly level? If I were to take out a young horse, then yes, I would be stuck with the Pros and all their fancy green horses. But would it be any more fair to make it a strictly Pro/Amateur divide? Then you may have amateurs who have gone Prelim and Intermediate competing BN on their green horses against a 50-something new rider at her first event ever, which is just as big of a mismatch. And to be honest, unless you’re in it strictly to chase points, sometimes that 7th or 8th place in tough competition means more than winning an event against lesser competition.
Sticky, that’s a good point. The playing field will never be perfectly level. Regarding the sport of eventing, I find the “Ammy/Pro” division not very effective in creating fair competition. Earning any sort of income from training or lessons does not make a more competitive rider-- experience does. A college student teaching up/downs who has never ridden above novice is NOT equivalent to Boyd Martin. An ammy with a young horse who has three other prelim horses probably is best suited for an OBN or BNH division, not BNR.
And for the whining about “competing horses to sell”, that isn’t necessarily a “professional” activity either. One is perfectly able to buy and sell one’s own horses for profit, and remain a USEF amateur. You just can’t ride someone else’s horse for money or be paid to teach lessons. Has nothing to do with riding ability or horse sales. I’m not really sure how buying a $1500 horse off the track, riding it BN/N for a year, and selling it for $4500 is ruining the adult amateur’s enjoyment of the sport. Because that’s what a LOT of us do, and have done in this sport for a really long time. It’s only a handful of pros who import from Europe and flip fancy animals (often to AAs and YRs!) for big money. The rest of us are picking up cheap TBs off the track, looking for Our Big Horse, and after some time and lot of effort, selling the ones who would be happier at a lower level with kid or ammy.
Here in FL, I get beat regularly by all the big names each winter. It stings, but I stay focused on my own performance goals. People compete for all sorts of reasons-- we all like to win!-- but others to measure their progress against a standard, and judge themselves against their own capabilities. If I only cared about ribbons I would have quit long ago.
It would be a shame to focus narrowly on one’s own perspective of the sport, and not realize what else others gain from participating. Not everyone will be happy all the time, but we all love this sport for an important reason-- our horses. Don’t lose sight of that.
There was a proposal sometime in the past to have different “grades” of events, something ala the H/J model with the cheaper, more local events having softer, inviting courses and fewer amenities, and then the “A” shows with harder courses, bigger prizes, etc.
While it sounds like some of you might be happier with that model (I’m sure you could limit Cat. A riders to only A events), I think you’ll find that the vast majority of AA/Jr. riders will flock to the A shows and the smaller events will be forced to shut down.
I don’t pretend to understand the disconnect with people who whine about how expensive events are but only seem to want to go to the “nice” ones.
EDIT: Am I the only one that generally prefers being in divisions with pros? It usually means a more peaceful warmup…I know that there’s all the jump-hogging nonsense, but pros tend to do their business fast and leave.
A quick reminder for those of you that don’t like that the pros win- they are pros for a reason… they are good. They are probably better than you! They ride a lot of horses which helps them be good- really good- better than you. They should beat you! So if they screw up one move because they are on a green horse, the other 10 moves were probably way better than you do them. They can make green horses go great because they are great riders.
I know it’s tough if you live in area 2 or 3 and have to constantly be in divisions with them, but remember they may just be beating you b/c they are riding better and not because their name is Boyd or Buck!
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8962500]
Well it seems there is a vote to make me ineligible to compete in USEA events so I could be looking for another sport.[/QUOTE]
Pentathlon is there for you.
Possibly, although you would first have to find a fee to get a discount on. Entry fees are at most $150, mostly much less, and there’s no add-ons like stabling or shavings. And if you don’t have any equipment at all or your bag doesn’t arrive at the comp, you can borrow everything (yes, this has happened to me and a number of others over the years).
Nope.
Yes. Really. There’s usually a rule about not hanging on to the side of the pool or the lane rope, but I’ve seen that happen and no one cares. We’re just happy that you’ve showed up to try something brave and a little crazy. Which is not dissimilar in spirit to eventing.
There’s a very robust and fast-growing masters scene in pentathlon. Ex-Olympians, first-timers, adventure-seekers from other sports turn out for this. At masters world champs this summer, there were about 150 athletes from ages 30something to almost80. Degree of competency and seriousness varied wildly, but it was a good time and a spirited competition for all involved. The comp horses were excellent, too.
Firstly, I apologize for replying to something so far back in the thread – I’ve been away for a little while but felt I had to respond.
[QUOTE=JP60;8962062]
Winding, I’m not certain you mean to be contrary for contrary sake or if you just don’t comprehend my words. [/QUOTE]
I did not see this post as contrary. I saw it as genuine and an effort to discuss various points of issue that you made previously. I was about to like it and move on when I saw the response it got.
Exactly. The riding gods that came before us became what they are by riding every horse under the sun. That is what today’s pros are doing when they ride client horses, sales horses, young prospects, and more at all levels, including BN-T. Why would we try to actively restrict their ability to head out on course with the rest of us and collect every shred of experience possible?
Perhaps we differ on our training approach here, but when Amateur Marigold picks an overgrown yearling out of a field with big dreams of someday, when I take said horse to its first few shows, I’m not there to win. I’m there to school. It is appropriate, and more specifically, it is being safety conscious, to take youngsters out and to ride them in show environments without pressuring them to win. That is how they develop for the long-term, and once they are accustomed to seeing every ring and cross-country field as nothing more than another place where they have to listen to their rider, same as at home, then it is time to see if you have something underneath you that can win.
I know you are a fan of Michael Jung. The training philosophy that I mention above is something he talks about consistently. Not every show needs to be won, or even should be.
I don’t know about WD, but I’m not one of those people. Everything I’ve done and everything I’ve had came from whatever I could cobble together. I’ve gone years without showing just to be able to afford one season on the latest youngster no one would sit on, before it was taken away from me because said “record” made it suitable for a less experienced rider. I don’t know much. What I do know, I know because for the last couple decades I’ve hung around every knowledgeable person I could find in a barn.
I, too, ride in the dark, or get up at 5am so that I can leave work in time to get to the barn before they close the arena. I hear you. In a lot of ways, I think I AM you. I’m not fighting you, and it’s not a battle. We all love this sport. We’re just all using different approaches to try to find ways to make it work. Don’t give up – just discuss and share the value of your thoughts
While I don’t agree with everything JP60 has said, and in particular, I don’t want a standard ammy/pro division or competition split, I do think that the current pro mentality of riding 8-12 horses per show (most of which are owned by “owners”) while coaching another 5-10 students, has a very negative impact on the enjoyment of the sport by the average 1-3 horse competitor.
Pro’s in a hurry trying to maximize their chances of winning and moving up/selling tend to hog the warm up, bully their way to the front of the SJ line, go out of order, and casually break any number of long standing eventing rules in the name of expediency.
And speaking generally, the more owners there are, the more demands for things that don’t impact my enjoyment of the show but do raise my cost of participation. I don’t care about VIP tents, jumbo trons, fancy stabling, prize money, permanent bathrooms, 7 horse divisions, etc. etc., particularly if it means that entry fees go up. I don’t like corporate cookie cutter events that have shows every weekend. I like eventing at people’s farms. I like courses that go through the woods. And up hills.
Even the footing argument comes into play. If I’m eventing once a month, I can work around bad footing or give my horse time off afterwards. If you’re out every weekend, you need perfect footing. Perfect footing costs money.
2 Likes
[QUOTE=NCRider;8963024]
Even the footing argument comes into play. If I’m eventing once a month, I can work around bad footing or give my horse time off afterwards. If you’re out every weekend, you need perfect footing. Perfect footing costs money.[/QUOTE]
I was so disappointed when Stuart announced they were done, and I was really frustrated when one of the main reasons was they couldn’t provide footing that was good enough for some. It’s a perfect example of cutting off your nose to spite your face; we lost one of the only events that offered anything above prelim in Area 1 because it didn’t meet the expectations of an elite few.
Regarding Mr. Wofford…At least three of his top horses we purchased going three star at the very minimum. Kilkenny, Castlewellan and Carawich were VERY experienced top level horses when Jimmy bought them. He was also given the ride on an upper level Bluestone before Mike Plumb took over the ride.
[QUOTE=Highflyer;8962670]
I guess you could try it without pros-- that would be somewhere between 25-50% of the entries in this area for both recognized and unrecognized events. Plus maybe as much as another 10% who are unwilling to ride without their trainer/ dependent on the trainer for shipping but are unable to 100% cover costs if trainer is not also competing. I’m guessing at that point, everything above Prelim disappears, and probably all but a handful of Prelims. Most of the smaller recognized events that are just barely getting by go under. The events that are left increase their prices by 50% to make up for the lack of entry fees. That makes it too expensive for 25% plus of the remaining AAs and juniors…
Good luck.[/QUOTE]
Yep. This was my conclusion as well. All for a ribbon and a less crowded warm up area. Oh and not having to ride in the presence of those stinking UL pros.
Existing events would by and large fold which may mean that a new organization would form and the existing events would go for that organization.
And then what?
[QUOTE=snoopy;8963170]
Regarding Mr. Wofford…At least three of his top horses we purchased going three star at the very minimum. Kilkenny, Castlewellan and Carawich were VERY experienced top level horses when Jimmy bought them. He was also given the ride on an upper level Bluestone before Mike Plumb took over the ride.[/QUOTE]
I am not surprised. But here we have posts arguing that Americans don’t start their horses from the ground up juxtaposed with posts arguing that pros shouldn’t be allowed to compete in USEA events.
1 Like
[QUOTE=NCRider;8963024]
While I don’t agree with everything JP60 has said, and in particular, I don’t want a standard ammy/pro division or competition split, I do think that the current pro mentality of riding 8-12 horses per show (most of which are owned by “owners”) while coaching another 5-10 students, has a very negative impact on the enjoyment of the sport by the average 1-3 horse competitor.
Pro’s in a hurry trying to maximize their chances of winning and moving up/selling tend to hog the warm up, bully their way to the front of the SJ line, go out of order, and casually break any number of long standing eventing rules in the name of expediency.
And speaking generally, the more owners there are, the more demands for things that don’t impact my enjoyment of the show but do raise my cost of participation. I don’t care about VIP tents, jumbo trons, fancy stabling, prize money, permanent bathrooms, 7 horse divisions, etc. etc., particularly if it means that entry fees go up. I don’t like corporate cookie cutter events that have shows every weekend. I like eventing at people’s farms. I like courses that go through the woods. And up hills.
Even the footing argument comes into play. If I’m eventing once a month, I can work around bad footing or give my horse time off afterwards. If you’re out every weekend, you need perfect footing. Perfect footing costs money.[/QUOTE]
As someone with one horse running one or two times a month, I am pretty picky about footing. I want this horse to last for ten years and I want his experiences to be good so that he stays confident and brave and happy. And if I can only afford a few events i want to be able to actually do them, not hope that it will rain in the next three weeks so I don’t have to scratch.
[QUOTE=Highflyer;8963320]
As someone with one horse running one or two times a month, I am pretty picky about footing. I want this horse to last for ten years and I want his experiences to be good so that he stays confident and brave and happy. And if I can only afford a few events i want to be able to actually do them, not hope that it will rain in the next three weeks so I don’t have to scratch.[/QUOTE]
I’ve seen the opposite at some venues where there is so much rain that the amount of mud around the jumps is ridiculous. Too bad we can’t combine the two to make a nice course when the weather doesn’t cooperate 
[QUOTE=NCRider;8963024]
I do think that the current pro mentality of riding 8-12 horses per show (most of which are owned by “owners”) while coaching another 5-10 students, has a very negative impact on the enjoyment of the sport by the average 1-3 horse competitor. [/QUOTE]
This is a really good point.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8963417]
I’ve seen the opposite at some venues where there is so much rain that the amount of mud around the jumps is ridiculous. Too bad we can’t combine the two to make a nice course when the weather doesn’t cooperate :([/QUOTE]
That was actually the first half of the year here. The second half was concrete.
