This article was written six years ago. Still quite valid.
http://chronofhorse.com/article/defense-eventing-facing-equine-fatalities
[QUOTE=redalter;8962588]
Years ago, I was scribing, and Bruce came in to do his test. As I furiously wrote the comments, keeping up with what the judge was saying, I happened to look up and see Bruceās horse blow a lead and buck. I looked over at the judge who happened to be looking down. I asked her what was her score? She said 8. I said, ( I canāt believe I dared) oh, he blew a lead, the horse was bucking. She said, āwell, itās Bruce, so just give him the 8ā.
.[/QUOTE]
redalter, youād probably agree that Bruce is not to blame for that score. A very poor judge is to blame. My experience across disciplines is that the good judges judge performance and those who insecure or just plain stupid, judge the face.
lucegoose, I also like riding against pros, mainly because the warm up is typically peaceful and polite (pros usually know and follow the rules), and the bar is set high when I am trying to look like them. :lol:
[QUOTE=NCRider;8963024] I do think that the current pro mentality of riding 8-12 horses per show (most of which are owned by āownersā) while coaching another 5-10 students, has a very negative impact on the enjoyment of the sport by the average 1-3 horse competitor.
Proās in a hurry trying to maximize their chances of winning and moving up/selling tend to hog the warm up, bully their way to the front of the SJ line, go out of order, and casually break any number of long standing eventing rules in the name of expediency.
Even the footing argument comes into play. If Iām eventing once a month, I can work around bad footing or give my horse time off afterwards. If youāre out every weekend, you need perfect footing. Perfect footing costs money.[/QUOTE]
NCRider, this is an honest question. Why does competing 8-12 horses and coaching 5-10 riders have a very negative impact on our enjoyment of the sport?
I honestly donāt notice. We must ride in different venues as I have not seen pros hogging, bullying and casual breaking long stand eventing rules. I am trying to think of examples. The only one I can think of is those riding multiple horses in the same division needing to go early or late in the SJ. But that usually doesnāt impact me as I just put my number in, get an estimate of how many horses I am out, and warm up accordingly. And unless they are going in numeric order, that is not a long standing eventing rule being broken, right? And the few times I have had someone be ugly to me in warm up, that person has been a (seemingly very nervous) rider who has some odd sense of rules (such as " This 1/4 of the warm up is owned by me and if you cross my boundary, I will say mean things to you")
I know a lot of people depend on having their trainers warm them up (this is a relatively new amateur thing in eventing that was not as prevalent in the past), but I donāt really care. Heck, I enjoy eavesdropping when they are walking courses, :eek:, although there are quite a few pros who give free coursewalks. I have been annoyed once or twice with someone setting fences in the warm up but I also recall asking someone to move a fence up or down for me and theyāve been nice enough to do so.
Butā¦ again, we must ride at different events. I hang mostly in the Virginia/ Maryland region and very occasionally go north or south.
Oh, and as far as footing is concerned. I am very picky about footing. I will scratch if the footing is rock hard . I wonāt do that to my horse.
Let me repeat, I am asking questions here and not challenging. I am sort of scratching my head and trying to figure out the general view that pros are ruining the sport of eventing.
1 Like
Well a certain well known UL rider has been using their weight to demand that there be assigned fences in warm up at certain venues. UGH. They do that in the H/J world because people do not shareā¦it is not something we need brought in to the event world.
But the desire by many to want more prize money and more of the H/J business model I do think has started to change the feel of the sport at a lot of eventsā¦and not in a good way to meā¦I donāt blame that just on pros though. But then there are times that it feels like the old sport that attracted me in the first placeā¦
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8964814]
Well a certain well known UL rider has been using their weight to demand that there be assigned fences in warm up and certain venues. UGH. They do that in the H/J world because people do not shareā¦it is not something we need brought in to the event world.
But the desire by many to want more prize money and more of the H/J business model I do think has started to change the feel of the sport at a lot of eventsā¦and not in a good way to meā¦I donāt blame that just on pros though. But then there are times that it feels like the old sport that attracted me in the first placeā¦[/QUOTE]
Ugh. āAssignedā fences in the warm up? No thanks. Also, I havenāt had this happen, but I would definitely be pissed if I had to wait to showjump after I warmed up for my assigned time just so that all of the trainerās students could ride one after the other and be babysat.
I hope that show management wonāt allow these things to become commonplace. Unfortunately, one or two individual amateurs speaking out or writing this on event evaluations probably wonāt mean anything if itās a Big Name pushing for it and threatening to take their business elsewhere.
I have no problem competing with pros and their students as long as they are subject to the same rules I am. But if I wanted to do stuff the way itās done in hunter/jumper land, I would go to a hunter/jumper show.
I was also thinking a bit about how if I am going to drop some serious money on an event, I do like going to one that runs the upper levels and attracts pros because I can see it as an added āperkā to get to see/hear from the experts. I even enjoy just seeing how they run things behind the scenes and care for their horses. Watching 5-10 pairs go through the water at Intermediate while I walk my Training course is one of those tiny benefits. I think itās important to support smaller events, but I do would be very sad to no longer have those sort of opportunities if we ābannedā pros.
Also, I do have an instructor, who is at most of the events I go to. She walks the courses with me and gives me input on how to ride certain elements. Itās helpful, educational, and helps me be more confident. But often, sheās riding one of her horses when I actually go warm up and compete.
When did eventers start needing all this hand-holding? The trainer canāt get on and school your horse ā¦ you just have to ride what you brought.
PRO was trying to get separate warm-ups for pro riders with sales horses a while back, which went over like a lead balloon. :rolleyes: I think there will be a proposal at the annual meeting to have an extra oxer in the warm-up, have it be set to the division height and illegal to adjust.
When did eventers start needing all this hand-holding? The trainer canāt get on and school your horse ā¦ you just have to ride what you brought.
This is a pet peeve of mine: trainers who give lessons in the warm-up, particularly dressage. Itās just stupid and not setting your student up for success in the long-run.
[QUOTE=lucegoose;8964848]
This is a pet peeve of mine: trainers who give lessons in the warm-up, particularly dressage. Itās just stupid and not setting your student up for success in the long-run.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and this would be highly unusual in the not so distant past. But with more and more LL riding at the events, we have more riders who want and request such lessons and detailed warm up. I have actually heard someone say that they arenāt going to an event because their trainer wasnāt going. Wow, my trainer is way too busy riding 8-10 horses in the competition to show up and watch me warm up, :lol: or even know that I competed.
But if people need that instruction in order to compete safely, I am okay with it. Just please donāt cut me off or hog the fences so I canāt warm up on my own.
As for those pros who wanted a separate warm up for sales horses, that is preposterous and I do recall who initiated that request. Cute. Not happening.
http://eventingnation.com/david-oconnor-to-serve-as-u-s-eventing-technical-advisor-through-2018/
I see DOC will continue to play a large role in where the sports heads. Guess the ship has indeed sailed.
[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;8964831]
Also, I do have an instructor, who is at most of the events I go to. She walks the courses with me and gives me input on how to ride certain elements. Itās helpful, educational, and helps me be more confident. But often, sheās riding one of her horses when I actually go warm up and compete.
When did eventers start needing all this hand-holding? The trainer canāt get on and school your horse ā¦ you just have to ride what you brought.[/QUOTE]
I just text my trainer the next day saying either we won or I fell off! The independence is the biggest aspect that attracted me to eventing. Iām not liking the growing trainer dependence thing either.
I donāt judge the rider when I see it happening, I judge the coach. Believe me, I can be a total nutcase at competitions. I used to have total nervous breakdowns in the warmup. Whenever I got like that, my coach would pull me aside and talk to me quietly, strategize with me what to do and then send me back out to work with only a word or two of encouragement/correction. By the time I started riding with a BNT, I was able to fool her into thinking I was a mostly-functional Adult Ammy! :lol:
My point is that itās poor trainers that create that codependency/neediness. The coach that helped me through my warmup neuroses is one of the most supportive, wonderful trainers around, but she doesnāt wipe your bum!
1 Like
[QUOTE=lucegoose;8964927]
I donāt judge the rider when I see it happening, I judge the coach. Believe me, I can be a total nutcase at competitions. I used to have total nervous breakdowns in the warmup. Whenever I got like that, my coach would pull me aside and talk to me quietly, strategize with me what to do and then send me back out to work with only a word or two of encouragement/correction. By the time I started riding with a BNT, I was able to fool her into thinking I was a mostly-functional Adult Ammy! :lol:
My point is that itās poor trainers that create that codependency/neediness. The coach that helped me through my warmup neuroses is one of the most supportive, wonderful trainers around, but she doesnāt wipe your bum![/QUOTE]
The more the trainer creates and or allows dependency, the greater their income.
[QUOTE=lucegoose;8964927]
I donāt judge the rider when I see it happening, I judge the coach.
My point is that itās poor trainers that create that codependency/neediness. [/QUOTE]
I think it is both, actually. If I had a trainer who wanted to warm me up for each phase, Iād politely decline. I think so many riders come up through the āriding schoolā mentality and have always had lessons regularly and the direction of a trainer. Others ride more independently and lesson less frequently.
Itās not bad or good. It is just different; and all else being equal, probably promotes safer riding. Itās not for me but who am I to judge those who prefer it?
I admit, I like it when my coach helps me warm up for dressage. Itās about the only time she sees me ride dressage, since I have a separate dressage trainer! We stay out of the way of other riders. And often she has a time conflict with another horse or student, or (gasp!) I am there by myself. I am certainly not dependent on her, but it does give me a bit more confidence.
However, I have only been competing for a couple of years, and my first event horse I had to retire after only a handful of HTs. So I am a newbie compared to most of you. Judge me if you willā¦
To me, thereās a big difference between a coach warming a rider up and giving a rider a lesson. And I donāt think it promotes safer riding; I think it creates students who canāt think for themselves.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8964814]
Well a certain well known UL rider has been using their weight to demand that there be assigned fences in warm up at certain venues. UGH. They do that in the H/J world because people do not shareā¦it is not something we need brought in to the event world.[/QUOTE]
Tiptoeing in from H/J landā¦
It is completely unfair to say that warm-up fences are āassignedā at H/J shows ābecause people do not shareā. Thatās nonsense. Trainers generally āclaimā one of 3-4 jumps in the schooling area for the typically brief warm up over fences when the rider is a few horses out. Unlike eventing, we normally jump both directions and it would be dangerous for multiple riders to be aiming for the same jumps if they were not being directed by the same trainer or jump-setter. Each set of jumps can be made X, vertical, oxer as needed for the horse and rider. Sure, there are the occasional jump hogs or people schooling too early or too longā¦but they are the exceptionā¦and just as annoying to us as they would be to you. The system works smoothly and efficiently and trainers are usually very nice if you need to go back and grab one more jump before you go into the ring. Sorryā¦but I hate reading nonsense about my discipline. And Iāve shown at CT shows in jumpers, tooā¦and I donāt make snide remarks about the difference in warm up procedures. Each has its pros and cons.
This concludes my rant.
[QUOTE=Raine;8965040]
Tiptoeing in from H/J landā¦
It is completely unfair to say that warm-up fences are āassignedā at H/J shows ābecause people do not shareā. Thatās nonsense. Trainers generally āclaimā one of 3-4 jumps in the schooling area for the typically brief warm up over fences when the rider is a few horses out. Unlike eventing, we normally jump both directions and it would be dangerous for multiple riders to be aiming for the same jumps if they were not being directed by the same trainer or jump-setter. Each set of jumps can be made X, vertical, oxer as needed for the horse and rider. Sure, there are the occasional jump hogs or people schooling too early or too longā¦but they are the exceptionā¦and just as annoying to us as they would be to you. The system works smoothly and efficiently and trainers are usually very nice if you need to go back and grab one more jump before you go into the ring. Sorryā¦but I hate reading nonsense about my discipline. And Iāve shown at CT shows in jumpers, tooā¦and I donāt make snide remarks about the difference in warm up procedures. Each has its pros and cons.
This concludes my rant.[/QUOTE]
The problem, however, is that many eventing competitors donāt have a trainer (or groom) to set fences. We rely on fences being set somewhat predictably (X, vertical, oxer) at reasonable heights. We often politely join in with someone before or after us who may have a ground person to set fences.
The new trend of āclaimingā fences in show jump warm up can negatively impact the warmup of other competitors. Iāve noticed a big difference in this within the past year-- BNRs using placing rails, splitting an oxer into a two-stride, and breaking from the traditional use of the fence (which sort of inhibits others from using it if you donāt share that warmup plan). I got āstuck on an islandā at Rocking Horse last monthā¦when I wanted to start jumping, all the fences were set at about 4ā. I waited for a groom to appear with the next āwaveā and put the fences downā¦suddenly all four warmup fences were at 3ā, and I needed an Intermediate height fence to finish my warmup to go in the ring. My horse jumped a cross-rail, a 3ā6" vertical, and a 3ā oxer in that order before our round. Despite the non-ideal warmup, we did ok and just had one rail down at the first fence. Many of the āspecialized warmupā horses also had a rail or two down. Iām left wonderingā¦did all that song and dance really help them that much? Iām certainly not a better rider, and likely their horses are more experienced and more expensiveā¦so how am I able to make it work without moving anything?
EventerAJ - totally agreeā¦in H/J style warm-up you do need a person setting jumps.
As far as the ājump customizingā goesā¦itās probably a mixed bag. But I do think for many horses itās helpful. Trying to get the rub on your last warm-up jump with a big vertical or square oxer is a good thing for my mare. And we did set up a one stride at the last show and I know that made a difference. We had moved up to 1.10m and where we had an issue with a rail was in the combinations. Setting one in the warm-up helped me practice supporting her better and we didnāt have a rail in the next class. I guess youād need parallel universes to know for sure if anything made a difference.
Bottom line is that there are advantages and disadvantages to both warm-up styles. Maybe there is a hybrid approach that could be considered. Maybe volunteer jump-setters for people without trainers or available friends? Or maybe 1-2 fences could be assigned and the other 2-3 open?
I donāt doubt that schooling similar questions to the ones on course during warm up can improve your round. But that has never been how it is in eventing ā¦ part of the challenge has always been to be prepared enough that you can ride the questions on course without being able to practice beforehand.
Are we going to start having ring familiarization for showjumping, too? Practice water complexes in XC warmup?
[QUOTE=Raine;8965098]
EventerAJ - totally agreeā¦in H/J style warm-up you do need a person setting jumps.
ā¦
Bottom line is that there are advantages and disadvantages to both warm-up styles. Maybe there is a hybrid approach that could be considered. Maybe volunteer jump-setters for people without trainers or available friends? Or maybe 1-2 fences could be assigned and the other 2-3 open?[/QUOTE]
So I totally hear what you are saying about it working for people in H/J, but trust me, this isnāt going to work in eventing. First of all, as someone who knows how hard it is to get even enough volunteers to run the jobs that need doing, getting more to cater to people in warmup is simply not realistic.
Also, it really goes against the culture of eventing - these are tests of training and readiness, and we canāt have coaching from the rail, or school the courses ahead of time. Part of the culture is that you do your prep before you arrive, and then it is as level a playing field as we can make it. Everyone gets the same warmup fences.
The rules actually are very specific about warmup fences and go to this point. You canNOT raise the fences more than one hole above the level (our warmup standard are marked with colored tape so the steward can eyeball it from across warmup), you canāt make an oxer a one stride, etc.
We all get the same basic tools, and all of us can end up splat in the middle of the second oxer on course (I have seen more than one very, very very famous rider do this in our sj ring), and all of us can have the day when everything goes right and we beat an Olympic medalist (on, of course, his very green horseā¦).
