WWYD: Client's farrier makes me uncomfortable

[Red_Barn]

@right horse at the right time

And do you recommend the same to those who are harrassed but who happen to be black, with a disability, transgender, etc.? They should just fight their own battles?

Sometimes. Sure.

I don’t think anybody should be considered helpless.

What in God’s name is wrong with that?

[retiredhorse]

Refusal to acknowledge that privilege and disenfranchisement exist, and that one’s relative privilege may make it exponentially easier/harder to respond to harassment (or whether one gets harassed in the first place), is one of the main blocks towards progress, imo.

It’s less about a person being considered helpless and more about understanding they may have more hoops to go through in order to fight back against harassment. Or may face more harassment in general in their daily life. Or may be in more danger if they fight back against it, without the help of a larger/more powerful person or group. The idea isn’t to say any one person isn’t strong enough, but that they shouldn’t be harassed in the first place.

We SHOULD all be equal and all that, but cultural/social/economic inequality exists. Which is why stuff like racism, sexism, homophobia, ableism, etc exist. It seems somewhat disingenuous to expect a disprivileged person to push back, as if they were on even footing with a privileged person (I don’t mean privilege in terms of wealth alone), as if they didn’t have more to lose or less power to being with. This to me is the stuff that ought to be addressed much more than victim-blaming or framing harassment as an individual problem.

[Red_Barn]

I’m sorry. I just hate this kind of fuzzy, pseudo-progressive bullshit, so I’m going to bow out of the conversation now.

Have a great day.

[pluvinel]

@Red Barn

Very much so!

I teach in a small rural university, and see this every day of the week - and, believe me, it’s not making women and girls stronger in any way whatsoever; quite the opposite, in fact.

RB…please say more about what you see. I believe that the we are creating a generation of women who feel like victims.

It is the pablum recited below that was being taught at my workplace…I sat thru countless of these sessions over a long career.

It was almost like brainwashing…that there was this overwhelming, oppressive, system…that I needed to seek out a higher power (HR) to help me/women out.

And instead of feeling empowered, I started to feel like a “victim”…and I did not like it.

It made me feel badly about myself. It made me feel like I couldn’t do anything about it…because it was the “system” that was oppressing me.

It became very trying and burdensome to attend these sessions.

@retiredhorse

Refusal to acknowledge that privilege and disenfranchisement exist, and that one’s relative privilege may make it exponentially easier/harder to respond to harassment (or whether one gets harassed in the first place), is one of the main blocks towards progress, imo.

It’s less about a person being considered helpless and more about understanding they may have more hoops to go through in order to fight back against harassment. Or may face more harassment in general in their daily life. Or may be in more danger if they fight back against it, without the help of a larger/more powerful person or group. The idea isn’t to say any one person isn’t strong enough, but that they shouldn’t be harassed in the first place.

We SHOULD all be equal and all that, but cultural/social/economic inequality exists. Which is why stuff like racism, sexism, homophobia, ableism, etc exist. It seems somewhat disingenuous to expect a disprivileged person to push back, as if they were on even footing with a privileged person (I don’t mean privilege in terms of wealth alone), as if they didn’t have more to lose or less power to being with. This to me is the stuff that ought to be addressed much more than victim-blaming or framing harassment as an individual problem.

[ladyj79]

@pluvinel

RB…please say more about what you see. I believe that the we are creating a generation of women who feel like victims.

It is the pablum recited below that was being taught at my workplace…I sat thru countless of these sessions over a long career.

It was almost like brainwashing…that there was this overwhelming, oppressive, system…that I needed to seek out a higher power (HR) to help me/women out.

And instead of feeling empowered, I started to feel like a “victim”…and I did not like it.

It made me feel badly about myself. It made me feel like I couldn’t do anything about it…because it was the “system” that was oppressing me.

It became very trying and burdensome to attend these sessions.

Isn’t that funny? Because these conversations empower me to stand up for other people. I have no issue standing up for myself, but rather than berate others for being weak, I’m more compelled to berate jerks for being jerks.

[retiredhorse]

@ladyj79

Isn’t that funny? Because these conversations empower me to stand up for other people. I have no issue standing up for myself, but rather than berate others for being weak, I’m more compelled to berate jerks for being jerks.

Yes, exactly. It’s so weird to me that people don’t see this. If, for example, you make a building accessible, you make it more accessible for EVERYONE, not just people with disabilities. If you shift culture so the blame is on the harasser, instead of the harassed, EVERYONE benefits, except perhaps the harassers (and including those who cannot defend themselves – how is this a bad thing??). It’s not seeing myself as a victim, it’s understanding how to world works to better fight these issues and oppressive systems. And understanding that me standing with other victims, instead of blaming them, makes us stronger together than trying to do this alone/individually.

It’s also really weird to me how people can look at the world and NOT see inequality? Or call it “fuzzy, pseudo-progressive bullshit” to address it?

[mvp]

@pluvinel

It does not matter whether it is a gender, racial, disability…or whatever…“thing.”

It IS about setting clear expectations about what sorts of behavior is allowed around your person.

Go read the thread on the “Sensitive topic…boarder w/child”…that person is having anxiety/difficulty telling a boarder that a certain behavior is unacceptable in HER property.

It is no different than telling the farrier to bugger-off.

This topic IS all about not avoiding conflict and establishing expectations for standards of behavior…regardless what is the inappropriate behavior.

FWIW, I think the “crimes” committed by the farrier here in relation to the OP (direct) and that of the parent who is yelling at her kid with the OP in that thread as a witness are quite different. I think the OP over there is getting all worked up to be butt-hurt and to not use her words to ask for the behavior she wants, or better yet, figure out a kind way to get more peaceable parenting while the parent/kid team is in her barn.

I’m kind of a stickler for keeping things accurately described and proportionate. That’s the only basis for being effective and fair in your dealings with people.

[ladyj79]

Remember, that OP (of the appropriate child behaviour spin off) previously wanted to call immigration on her neighbours because their kids were loud and obvs they were illegal since they spoke Spanish at home :lol::lol::lol:

[atlatl]

@pluvinel

It is a system that encourages women to “talk to HR” that relegates them to a second-class population “needing protection.”

…

And rest assured…HR is not there for you (the employee)…they are there to protect the corporation from legal action.

I’ve been watching this conversation for awhile.

While, as a strong woman myself, I understand the frustration with other women that don’t stand up for themselves, I also recognize that each individual has their own back story and for whatever reason may not be able to do so. One could take the logic of a generalized approach of “it’s every man, woman and child for themselves” to the extreme of there should be no protection for victims of anything including child abuse, which I am certain those on the neither side of this debate would advocate.

Thinking that letting women know that there are resources to help them should they choose to avail themselves of the same is anything other than empowering is very sad. We women are so often our own worst enemies in the workplace.

How about this for a horror story; I work supporting the military and at an all hands a male Colonel was talking about the commitment to a safe and equal opportunity workplace. As part of his talk, he mentioned that if someone felt sexually harassed, they could call a special hotline on the base that would guarantee confidentiality and not conduct an investigation so women could feel safe from retaliation and have someone to talk to! I was compelled to point out that he should also provide the hotline number where women could call and have an investigation conducted as opposed to a coverup. We literally debated for 5 additional minutes. More than a few women junior officers thanked me.

I was able to have that debate because I didn’t work directly for that guy and my professional stature was higher than his. In short, I had equal or greater “power.”

Yes, there are wackos out there like the example of the person offended by the word impregnate, but I believe that’s a minority.

I find many, not all, but many of the women I know that are less sympathetic to the subtleties of sexual discrimination in the workplace don’t work in what are predominately male professions. Others of us that do, frequently take an attitude of “I was able to survive, you should be too.” Hell, I’ve literally told a woman that there’s no crying in baseball, to go to the bathroom and compose herself.

We’re all in this together sisters, we should act like it. Many of the guys have figured that out!

[atlatl]

Just remembered another horror story; I had a woman tell me that women shouldn’t make a big deal of men “being men” in the workplace. Her husband had been reprimanded for inappropriate behavior and she was concerned it would impact his chances for promotion. She doesn’t work outside of the home; at all, never has, doesn’t see why women should.

[pluvinel]

@atlatl

I’ve been watching this conversation for awhile.

While, as a strong woman myself, I understand the frustration with other women that don’t stand up for themselves, I also recognize that each individual has their own back story and for whatever reason may not be able to do so. One could take the logic of a generalized approach of “it’s every man, woman and child for themselves” to the extreme of there should be no protection for victims of anything including child abuse, which I am certain those on the neither side of this debate would advocate.

Thinking that letting women know that there are resources to help them should they choose to avail themselves of the same is anything other than empowering is very sad. We women are so often our own worst enemies in the workplace.

How about this for a horror story; I work supporting the military and at an all hands a male Colonel was talking about the commitment to a safe and equal opportunity workplace. As part of his talk, he mentioned that if someone felt sexually harassed, they could call a special hotline on the base that would guarantee confidentiality and not conduct an investigation so women could feel safe from retaliation and have someone to talk to! I was compelled to point out that he should also provide the hotline number where women could call and have an investigation conducted as opposed to a coverup. We literally debated for 5 additional minutes. More than a few women junior officers thanked me.

I was able to have that debate because I didn’t work directly for that guy and my professional stature was higher than his. In short, I had equal or greater “power.”

Yes, there are wackos out there like the example of the person offended by the word impregnate, but I believe that’s a minority.

I find many, not all, but many of the women I know that are less sympathetic to the subtleties of sexual discrimination in the workplace don’t work in what are predominately male professions. Others of us that do, frequently take an attitude of “I was able to survive, you should be too.” Hell, I’ve literally told a woman that there’s no crying in baseball, to go to the bathroom and compose herself.

We’re all in this together sisters, we should act like it. Many of the guys have figured that out!

I don’t consider this a sexual harassment issue. I just think this is an example of a guy who was trying to do “the right thing”…but was clueless.

I would say your reaction was “brave”… vs all the other junior officers who didn’t want to stand out…or offend…or be seen as “impolite.”

Here is an interesting TED talk that address women’s reactions to risk…
https://www.ted.com/talks/reshma_sau…term=education

We’re raising our girls to be perfect, and we’re raising our boys to be brave…
…
so many women I talk to tell me that they gravitate towards careers and professions that they know they’re going to be great in, that they know they’re going to be perfect in, and it’s no wonder why. Most girls are taught to avoid risk and failure. We’re taught to smile pretty, play it safe, get all A’s. Boys, on the other hand, are taught to play rough, swing high, crawl to the top of the monkey bars and then just jump off headfirst. And by the time they’re adults, whether they’re negotiating a raise or even asking someone out on a date, they’re habituated to take risk after risk.
…