As long as TBTB in your workplace agree with how you handled the problem. That’s part of the problem. It is hard to know - very hard - what is the correct/approved way to deal with biggots and racists in a “professional” manner - when you are an employee. Furthermore - as anyone who has dealt with these types of people knows - even if you do “handle” it yourself, in an “approved” way that doesn’t get you targeted by management, you will probably still end up a target of the asshat who put you in that position in the first place. And they can and usually do try to make things miserable for you. Which impacts your ability to work productively. The ONLY way to deal with it is for the company/workplace to set a standard of ZERO tolerance - one strike and you are out. Obviously, if there are not witnesses, you have a problem - it can turn into a he/she said ordeal. So then there is that. I am glad we are having this conversation and that, hopefully, things are improving for the women coming behind us.
I will say that my situation that happened in my workplace recently, really threw me for a loop. First it was so unexpected, so when it happened I had the deer in the headlights response. I was working for a friend and didn’t want to cause any trouble. Then if I did say something would I be believed. Then if I was believed, would the jerk say, “oh I was just joking a little, no need to be so serious, or run shrieking over an innocent thing” crap and turn the whole thing around on me. (victim blaming)
Point is… that I didn’t want to go to the owner and say anything. So far I haven’t had to, because he hasn’t been back. Could be the death stare I gave him at the end of the day, who knows? But I really felt just as uncomfortable saying something as I did while being harassed. And that my friends is what is wrong here and needs to be fixed. No one should ever have to put up with this crap at their work place ever. There should be a clear zero tolerance policy.
I felt helpless because of the workplace situation. I felt like I could not set the jerk straight because of the overwhelming pressure to be polite, and professional and not make a fuss. I felt I could not speak up for myself. Now if I was not at work, and this happened, I would not have had a problem setting the jerk straight. So there in lies the problem of not having zero tolerance. Jerks like this guy are predators that know they can get away with this crap in a work place, so they prey on women that are forced to be polite and suck it up. Because they know nothing will be done.
There are a whole lotta mommas out there that didn’t raise their boys right, and did them a huge disservice in doing so. No man that is worth his salt would ever engage in this behavior, turn a blind eye to this behavior, or expect the victim to suck it up and endure this behavior.
You DO NOT have to “suck it up”…but you DO need to clearly state the rules for interacting with you if someone if crosses the line of what you consider appropriate.
You are conflating standing up for yourself as “being impolite” or “unprofessional” in a work environment.
You can very well use a professional vocabulary and tone of voice to communicate what you will tolerate as allowed behavior. This can be done in a professional manner that leaves no question about your position.
If he runs off saying, “oh, it was just a joke”…that’s ok, but rest assured, you will have made your point.
You will not change this person…but you can change how you respond.
I can tell you that when I was riding a 4-year old stallion, I used to tell people that “he found my question marks”…eg., invariably it always happened that if I questioned myself (was I riding correctly, was it may fault…for whatever) I usually found myself bucked off.
It was only when I found my “voice” (that little conversation we all have in our heads) and had the confidence to ride a hot, opinionated stallion, that he quit bucking me off.
What is this Cooper Review?..This is a joke right?..
I guess I flunked.
You’re in good company!
That is my point as well. If you do stand up for yourself it is frowned upon and considered rude. Your branded a trouble making female if you don’t just go along with it. I don’t have way with words so much, so I find it is frustrating to try to say what I mean. But I just feel the time has come for us to move forward and get rid of that stigma attached to standing up for yourself and your right to not be harassed. The time has come to call out the bad behavior that was overlooked and ignored for so long.
Also right along the I don’t have a way with words. I would be very pressed to be professional, and polite, and tone of voice went way out the door. To be totally honest, if not at work I might have really went off on this guy, and I mean badly. And if he had been younger and continued to press me, I might have knocked his block off. Oh I am not proud of that at all. I do have a bad temper that I struggle with. I am a work in progress for sure. But I felt hindered to act because I was at work and had years of training/ brainwashing not to react. As with the story about your stallion. I was not in my element at work, thus questioned myself.
We need to get to a place where people can stand up for themselves, with out questioning themselves and with out the suck it up crap we are being fed. By the way love your posts!!!:encouragement:
Nodding in agreement about finding a proportional response. So my harasser was a bit of a groper, and I wanted SO BADLY to knee him, but did not think that was a professional thing to do. I did eventually find my words, but since I didn’t instinctively come up with that, I froze so I wouldn’t “create a scene” – in that sense, I tend to think “creating a scene” or even “shrieking” as a deterrent should NOT be branded as trouble-making, even if it’s “unprofessional”. Return the scene back to the sender. We as a society/culture need to get to a place where instead of asking “why didn’t you stop it” or do something else to stop it or be the bigger person/more professional than the other guy, we ask “why did that other person start harassing/think it was ok” in the first place. It would also protect people who for whatever reason are unable to defend themselves, and I don’t think that is a bad thing or creating more victims.
And do you recommend the same to those who are harrassed but who happen to be black, with a disability, transgender, etc.? They should just fight their own battles?
It does not matter whether it is a gender, racial, disability…or whatever…“thing.”
It IS about setting clear expectations about what sorts of behavior is allowed around your person.
Go read the thread on the “Sensitive topic…boarder w/child”…that person is having anxiety/difficulty telling a boarder that a certain behavior is unacceptable in HER property.
It is no different than telling the farrier to bugger-off.
This topic IS all about not avoiding conflict and establishing expectations for standards of behavior…regardless what is the inappropriate behavior.
Yeah, that’s a big piece of what needs addressing too. It’s why framing this as an individual problem is so very limited (and clearly not working). One reason harassment exists and continues is because people with privilege/power have gotten away and continue to get away with it. I think there’s more of a real fix to establish cultural change and to question the harassers or let them know there is zero-tolerance for their actions (not just in workplace, but society-wide, a cultural shift in thinking it’s ok to harass someone in the first place), rather than tell victims (yet again and again) that there was more they could do, or just be more confident or whatever.
There is at times, most times, a power differential.
I agree in theory that people should be able to stand up to this. Should be.
However, there’s much more at play, and this is why people need protection.
Do you understand that someone with a disability might not be able to stand up to someone else? Same goes for anyone. It is very different owning a property and creating rules than it is being an hourly low paid employee telling someone who does not report to you to take a hike.
You said it beautifully.
Some of these responses are entirely victim shaming, and that is unfortunate and sad And indicative of the fact that this is so pervasive in both genders.
I guess we have basic philosophical differences.
I believe in the “power of the individual”…and not in a “higher power” as the first line of defense to look after my interests.
I have seen it too many times that women will not “step into their power”.
And then also there is the corollary…When those women that do set rules and limitations about what they will tolerate are then “victim shamed” and called a “pushy bitch” or more mild…“bossy”…by other women…
That’s great for you. I usually do as well, and as someone who is, as you are, respected in my field and holding certain titles, I have been the target of Anna groceries wrath, and I have paid the price for both sticking up for myself and for not sticking up for myself. What’s important to many is being able to provide for themselves or their family including paying the mortgage, rent, food bills, etc.
There are many who are not in the position that you are in or that I am in, and to suggest that they need to fight their own battles Is not only preposterous, but discriminatory and the epitome of victim shaming.
I have been victim shamed for both reasons you write above. Stinks. But we don’t throw away the need for regulations such that people can be held accountable because, in instances, they are.
I had a patient who was harassed mercilessly because she was a lesbian. Without going into details, she won the fight with the help of her resources, including me. And those bastards had to pay out big time. She needed help. Was I to counsel her to just go in there and tell them off? Guess what, she did, multiple times.
I said “first line of defense.”
If your patient was within their legal rights, then I’m glad it was pursued successfully.
But legal action is a much later and larger escalation than first looking at your nemesis (whatever shape that person has), stand eyeball to eyeball…and having a frank conversation about whatever the issue might be.
I also paid a price in that I was laid off for speaking my mind.
So…BTDT…got the T-shirt…and I will continue to speak up.
He is NOT there to win miss congeniality he is there to shoe the horses. Definitely calmly tell your boss what the farrier said and then either walk away if you do not like their reaction, see if perhaps someone else could be “visiting groom” when farrier is there or give him the cold shoulder be professional but minimalist. I am not saying you need to silently grin and bear it or condoning him, but how many more times would it be solely up to you to deal with him, do you have to stand and hold horses for him or just hand them over and take them back? Before you all flame me: I too have dealt with a skeevy perv black smith…like I was sitting in the stall with a pony who was basically waiting for the vet to euth her holding her head in my lap he thought we should spray her with the hose and whip her to get her up and outside (she had a spinal injury that paralyzed her hind end which was unfortunately not reversing with treatment) but in the mean time he snapped pics saying “ohhh your hair my god the hair your eyes show me those eyes…you know I could get you on the cover of farrier’s magazine” I did tell trainer, full well knowing there would be no real repercussions for the farrier even though she may like him even less personally she would still think highly of him professionally…the perv comments about my appearance he made almost every visit I could kind of brush off, but while I was trying to make sure this poor pony could breathe comfortably and didn’t try to get up when she hears the kids coming to visit was where I drew the line so I was able to totally avoid him after that… trainer would tell me when he was coming so I could either be busy out of his sight or not there and if a horse needed to be held she had her husband do it if at all possible.
So will I, calculatedly.
I know that you don’t agree with me, but can you understand why there needs to be a protection for people who cannot speak up for themselves or who are in such a power differential that they are silenced? It’s a thing. It really is.
We have to look out for each other… We cannot assume that everyone is like we are and can stick up for ourselves… And even you and I have suffered the consequences greatly. At some point, it’s exhausting, and for some people, that exhaustion might happen earlier. The patient I talked about was an hourly worker who was fired and suffered great consequences. There’s less bandwidth, there’s less of a cushion, there is less of a shock absorbing environment.
I had a medical director hit on me constantly and I turned him down constantly. He then Began making denigrating comments. I left the company due to his behavior.
He sent me an email insinuating that I had made mistakes and that he would be reporting me to the board and I had just better walk away and not say anything.
That evening my boyfriend came over and I was changing my clothes and he said something to me about my body that was very appropriate between two people in a loving relationship. I burst into tears and he was shocked. I showed him the email he had tears in his eyes and he said this happens to you all the time, doesn’t it.
And it does. He and I worked together and he saw it with his own eyes. Why should I have to continue to fight my own battles? Why shouldn’t I be able to push a button that says asshole medical director you’re fired. Instead, if I had going forward about it, he would’ve written a letter to the board, and I would’ve had to spend thousands fighting something. All because he sexually harassed me and I told him no.
Why should I have to spend my time, energy, money, and hurt my personal relationships because someone is sexually abusive and harassing? Shouldn’t that person be dealt with Swiftly and correctly with no harm to me?
Actually I agree with you…in an ideal world there would be no discrimination or harassment.
But since the reality is that there will always be bigots & pr**cks in the world, so one just needs to decide whether this is the hill you want to die on.
Agree. Sometimes people have less of a choice as to going to another hill.
I hope the tide turns although there will always be those nasty people. Sad.
