WWYD—coach drugging horses

[Denali6298]

@Farosh

Lol you just were unaware of how hard it was on the horses.

So you don’t show?

[Farosh]

@Denali6298

So you don’t show?

I’m not going to argue with you about why IHSA style of showing is way more taxing than a horse with a regular rider doing maybe one division a day. If I have to spell the differences out for you than you have a lot of learning to do when it comes to managing horses. Which is fine but you should just go get some real world experience, don’t take it from me.

[Denali6298]

@Farosh

I’m not going to argue with you about why IHSA style of showing is way more taxing than a horse with a regular rider doing maybe one division a day. If I have to spell the differences out for you than you have a lot of learning to do when it comes to managing horses. Which is fine but you should just go get some real world experience, don’t take it from me.

Now that’s funny.

[gottagrey]

@alter3974

As I stated up thread, it was a spur of the moment conversation at the ring when pretty much the whole team was present. It was not a gossipy conversation in the shadows with one other person. Several people participated in the conversation and after the initial comment that the horses had gotten Ace (in response to my comment that the horses might be fresh this morning) several other team members agreed that the horses had been drugged. They also saw the bottle labeled Ace. I find it extremely unlikely that these team members got together beforehand and decided to fabricate a story about the horses being drugged to tell me. As far as mistaking ace for bute or banamine, neither of those is bright yellow (as far as I know) and I’d be hard pressed to understand how it got inside a bottle labeled acepromazine.

There is also actually another detail that I DID personally witness after the show was over that led me to conclude my teammates were indeed correct. I haven’t shared that on this forum because it would require me to reveal enough detail to identify what team I’m on. I posted this under an alter for a reason. I didn’t want to identify anyone, I simply wanted outside opinions on the situation.

So the horses that are old, or creaky or have soundness issues are also fresh? I can see how the conversation went so now nearly the whole team knows that Sparky might have a little less Spark today. It sounds as though this coach and barn were just not a good fit for you so it’s good you’re moving on. Hopefully you will find a barn that will be a better fit.
Unfortunately, you might come across this sort of thing again.

[Caligirl83]

@To the MAX

I’m so glad @supershorty628, @reithme2, and @Tackpud have chimed in here. I competed in IHSA all throughout my undergrad and I still compete as an alumni. Please don’t condemn the entire format and organization because some people have had bad experiences. I have been involved in running shows, schooling horses, and providing horses. I have never once seen anyone in my region drug, mistreat, or otherwise do anything that is not in the best interest of the horses. If a horse has to be drugged to participate in an IHSA show, they aren’t the right fit for the program and you should find different horses and a trainer that has that mindset.

I second this. I was an IHSA captain in college for a school that did not have an equine science program and competed against schools that did. I helped organize shows including recruiting horse donations from members of the community since our school did not own horses. I also competed alumni, warmed up horses for shows after I graduated, helped host IHSA Nationals in our region (as well as competed at Nationals on the east coast when I was in undergrad), and have friends who are current IHSA coaches. It is an amazing unique organization that gives college riders without $$$ to do the rated shows an opportunity to ride, show and become well rounded horseman.

I never witnessed drugs being given other than rare cases of bute administered in compliance with legal limits (California is also a state where drug testing happens at everything from rated shows to local county fairs). We also did not have our horses standing around all day doing 6-10 classes. Horses always had stalls to rest in and were brought out for AM jumping warmups then returned to their stalls until the class before theirs started. Flat only horses were not warmed up until flat warmups after the jumping was done. We asked horse owners to tell us the type and number of jumping rounds & flat classes that were ok to do (most did max 5 in one day - 3 jumping rounds and 2 flat classes or if it was a jumping only horse no more than 4 rounds total). We constantly reminded our team about the importance of sportsmanship and to thank the horse handler and the horse even if one had a bad round. We cheered each other on, even the other schools once we got to zones and nationals. It was a true team sport that I have not found at other types of hunter jumper shows.

Of course there are bad apples in every horse industry who drug horses all the time with no regard to horse welfare, including rated and nonrated shows. The posts saying that IHSA is about riders “looking pretty” and sitting there like “blobs” with no concern for horse welfare and “zero horsemanship” goes against EVERYTHING IHSA stands for. You are supposed to watch warmups with an eye to the horses in your division, think about how to ride them, talk to people on your team who have ridden the horse before, talk to the horse handler, and figure out your ride on your opening circle since you had no warmup. Very different than riding in a rated show (which I did before and after IHSA). And sorry but have you never watched a Long Stirrup or beginner class (or even AA hunters or low level jumpers) at a rated show? Trainers who overface their riders are not unique to IHSA. Our team was careful to make sure riders were ready to show and if necessary had riders ride before stewards and drop down a level if their paper level did not match their actual ability.

Also, for those that are horrified about home teams having an advantage with re to practicing over the course… It’s not really the case since usually multiple schools are required to bring horses and there is no guarantee home riders will draw home horses. Like somebody else mentioned, it was actually more difficult when you drew your own horse bc you often then tried to micromanage the horse instead of just riding what you had.

The whole purpose of IHSA is to be a true horseman and learn how to be a catch rider in the way no other type of show experience can provide. I am sad that this was not the case for some COTH posters. Frankly, if you were that horrified by your local IHSA experiences as either a spectator, rider or horse provider… YOU should have contacted the stewards at that specific show, the head of the region or the national organization. I would STRONGLY encourage the OP to do so.

Sorry to write a novel! I’m usually just a lurker but some of the frankly rude and insulting posts about the IHSA apparently got under my skin. I’m not naive enough to think that bad stuff doesn’t happen. But if you witness and don’t report things then YOU are part of the problem. And you just frankly can’t make blanket statements about the entire nationwide IHSA experience.

My (more than) two cents.

[Tackpud]

@Caligirl83

I second this. I was an IHSA captain in college for a school that did not have an equine science program and competed against schools that did. I helped organize shows including recruiting horse donations from members of the community since our school did not own horses. I also competed alumni, warmed up horses for shows after I graduated, helped host IHSA Nationals in our region (as well as competed at Nationals on the east coast when I was in undergrad), and have friends who are current IHSA coaches. It is an amazing unique organization that gives college riders without $$$ to do the rated shows an opportunity to ride, show and become well rounded horseman.

I never witnessed drugs being given other than rare cases of bute administered in compliance with legal limits (California is also a state where drug testing happens at everything from rated shows to local county fairs). We also did not have our horses standing around all day doing 6-10 classes. Horses always had stalls to rest in and were brought out for AM jumping warmups then returned to their stalls until the class before theirs started. Flat only horses were not warmed up until flat warmups after the jumping was done. We asked horse owners to tell us the type and number of jumping rounds & flat classes that were ok to do (most did max 5 in one day - 3 jumping rounds and 2 flat classes or if it was a jumping only horse no more than 4 rounds total). We constantly reminded our team about the importance of sportsmanship and to thank the horse handler and the horse even if one had a bad round. We cheered each other on, even the other schools once we got to zones and nationals. It was a true team sport that I have not found at other types of hunter jumper shows.

Of course there are bad apples in every horse industry who drug horses all the time with no regard to horse welfare, including rated and nonrated shows. The posts saying that IHSA is about riders “looking pretty” and sitting there like “blobs” with no concern for horse welfare and “zero horsemanship” goes against EVERYTHING IHSA stands for. You are supposed to watch warmups with an eye to the horses in your division, think about how to ride them, talk to people on your team who have ridden the horse before, talk to the horse handler, and figure out your ride on your opening circle since you had no warmup. Very different than riding in a rated show (which I did before and after IHSA). And sorry but have you never watched a Long Stirrup or beginner class (or even AA hunters or low level jumpers) at a rated show? Trainers who overface their riders are not unique to IHSA. Our team was careful to make sure riders were ready to show and if necessary had riders ride before stewards and drop down a level if their paper level did not match their actual ability.

Also, for those that are horrified about home teams having an advantage with re to practicing over the course… It’s not really the case since usually multiple schools are required to bring horses and there is no guarantee home riders will draw home horses. Like somebody else mentioned, it was actually more difficult when you drew your own horse bc you often then tried to micromanage the horse instead of just riding what you had.

The whole purpose of IHSA is to be a true horseman and learn how to be a catch rider in the way no other type of show experience can provide. I am sad that this was not the case for some COTH posters. Frankly, if you were that horrified by your local IHSA experiences as either a spectator, rider or horse provider… YOU should have contacted the stewards at that specific show, the head of the region or the national organization. I would STRONGLY encourage the OP to do so.

Sorry to write a novel! I’m usually just a lurker but some of the frankly rude and insulting posts about the IHSA apparently got under my skin. I’m not naive enough to think that bad stuff doesn’t happen. But if you witness and don’t report things then YOU are part of the problem. And you just frankly can’t make blanket statements about the entire nationwide IHSA experience.

My (more than) two cents.

Thank you for this wonderful review of what IHSA is. If anyone would like to discuss a specific horse show which concerns them, please feel free to contact me via PM, as the OP has, and I will be happy to assist you in finding the correct way to handle the situation, or bring it to the attention of the board. There are channels within the IHSA that take horsemanship and sportsmanship issues very seriously.

[alter3974]

@gottagrey

So the horses that are old, or creaky or have soundness issues are also fresh? I can see how the conversation went so now nearly the whole team knows that Sparky might have a little less Spark today. It sounds as though this coach and barn were just not a good fit for you so it’s good you’re moving on. Hopefully you will find a barn that will be a better fit.
Unfortunately, you might come across this sort of thing again.

Why do I feel like I’m being cross examined here? Jesus. I posted about a concerning event at an IHSA show; if you think I’m making all of it up feel free to ignore the entire thread instead of bumping it back up to the top.

And yes, just because a horse is older with possible soundness issues does not preclude it from coming out fresh on an unseasonably cold morning. And “nearly the whole team knew” that the horses had received Ace before the conversation occurred so I’m not sure what you’re getting at there. My coaches stuck a needle in those horse’s necks in front of everyone in the barn.

I’m not sure what the last part of your post means. “I might come across this sort of thing again”? As a junior I did the equitation and was luckily enough to show at lots of different venues, some of which were intimidating for the horses without room to lunge (think Devon). Of course this isn’t an exact equivalent to an IHSA situation, BUT my horse never got so much as a tube of perfect prep. I think I’ll manage to find a barn that doesn’t Ace the horses for riding.

[alter3974]

Double post, sorry

[TwoStrides]

@alter3974

Why do I feel like I’m being cross examined here? Jesus. I posted about a concerning event at an IHSA show; if you think I’m making all of it up feel free to ignore the entire thread instead of bumping it back up to the top.

And yes, just because a horse is older with possible soundness issues does not preclude it from coming out fresh on an unseasonably cold morning. And “nearly the whole team knew” that the horses had received Ace before the conversation occurred so I’m not sure what you’re getting at there. My coaches stuck a needle in those horse’s necks in front of everyone in the barn.

I’m not sure what the last part of your post means. “I might come across this sort of thing again”? As a junior I did the equitation and was luckily enough to show at lots of different venues, some of which were intimidating for the horses without room to lunge (think Devon). Of course this isn’t an exact equivalent to an IHSA situation, BUT my horse never got so much as a tube of perfect prep. I think I’ll manage to find a barn that doesn’t Ace the horses for riding.

OP, I agree with the other poster that you shouldn’t feel the need to defend your decision.

I’ve lurked on these forum for a long time and people can be quite arguementative and sometimes willfully obtuse if they don’t want to admit something. It’s almost never worth going back and forth over.

All that matters is that you’re doing what you think is morally right. The rest is just noise.

[midstride]

OP, it sounds like you made the right decision for you. Even if it is a giant misunderstanding, the conversation that the vast majority of the team was ok with it wouldn’t sit right with me either. The culture of the team is at question here, and if you don’t want to be around people who are ok with drugging horses, in whatever capacity, that’s your right.

I do wonder how many would feel differently if they, after the fact, learned they’d ridden a drugged horse (whether or not their team’s horse). It seems it would be different to make the choice to ride a drugged horse vs learning you unwittingly did ride a horse someone else deemed to drug.

[eqsiu]

@Farosh

I don’t agree with that either that’s a really naive outlook on life. I guess you never drive over the speed limit than, right?

I do. And if caught I have to suck it up and pay the ticket because I broke the law. I don’t whine about how the laws are stupid so I shouldn’t have to follow them.

[RugBug]

@Farosh

I don’t agree with that either that’s a really naive outlook on life. I guess you never drive over the speed limit than, right?

What an utterly ridiculous argument. People break laws all the time. That doesn’t mean it isn’t ‘wrong’ to do so (unless the law is an unethical one to start with). Your, and others, choice to break the speed limit doesn’t become ethical because most people do it. You are still breaking the law…and if you get caught, you rightly deserve the punishment.

[JustTheTicket]

I did IHSA at two schools each with an equine program, and I hated most of my time doing it. The schools’ horses were donated (and trust me, there is a reason why people donate to colleges instead of selling). To my knowledge, no one was drugging the horses, but there were plenty of times when it was terrifying to watch classes and it would have been better for everyone to give out a little ace.

Also, IHSA is solely about point chasing. It was probably intended to be about the horsemanship of having to hop on a horse and learn something, but all the IHSA coaches I’ve had focused more on “this is how to look pretty and win” than “this is how you get a difficult horse around a course.”

[JustTheTicket]

@RugBug

What an utterly ridiculous argument. People break laws all the time. That doesn’t mean it isn’t ‘wrong’ to do so (unless the law is an unethical one to start with). Your, and others, choice to break the speed limit doesn’t become ethical because most people do it. You are still breaking the law…and if you get caught, you rightly deserve the punishment.

Not really, when eqsiu’s argument was that its unethical in and of itself to just break a rule. So it’s hard to argue ethics when you are unethical yourself by speeding. If you truly believed that breaking rules, ie speeding, is unethical, you wouldn’t do it.

[vxf111]

I rode IHSA and also rode at a barn that hosted a different IHSA team post graduation. Horse were sometimes given Ace at both barns for the IHSA shows. Horses were sometimes used more than I thought was fair, or had really difficult days in ways I would not subject my own horses to. Some shows there just were not enough suitable horses for the number of rides. That did not result in the rides getting reduced, it resulted in horses getting over used. The school where I rode was a big competitive program. The school where I just boarded and was an observer/not a participant was not a competitive program but was at an A-rated show barn in a very very horsey area.

I went to law school and knew some people who boarded at another barn that did IHSA. That barn had plenty of appropriate lesson horses and I would doubt that Ace was used there. I also got the impression that horses didn’t have to be used quite as hard because fewer girls showed and there were more available horses to use.

FWIW horsemanship was not at all a component of my IHSA experience and lessons were very much about winning classes rather than learning to ride. I can’t speak as much to this at the other 2 schools I interacted with.

I think the IHSA experience is vastly different at different barns and in different zones.

[RugBug]

@Caligirl83

Also, for those that are horrified about home teams having an advantage with re to practicing over the course…

Sorry to write a novel! I’m usually just a lurker but some of the frankly rude and insulting posts about the IHSA apparently got under my skin.

So, I’m the one that posted about riding the horses over the course for a week. I never said I was horrified…that was all you. I’m not horrified, although I do find it a bit suspect. It provides an edge. But if those who have done IHSA say that it all evens out, I’m fine with that.

You’re apparently very upset, (and I agree some of the posters on this thread are quite over the top) but don’t make something out of what isn’t there.

I would also recognize that California has controls on drugging at shows like this that other states don’t have. Those state drug testers will show up at the tiniest of schooling shows…so it creates a bit of a deterrent.

[enjoytheride]

What flabbergasted me the most about the thread is the argument about what ethical means and why it’s not a big deal to drug horses at shows despite it being against the rules. We don’t really have a right to complain about rules violations in the rest of the show world do we?

[touchstone]

@JoannaHCR

I’m not going to address the specific issue of acing horses, as it is clearly against IHSA rules. As a former IHSA member, I would like to share some of my experiences with the organization, and the opportunities it provided me.

I have experienced IHSA as a student competitor, exec board member, alumni competitor, volunteer warm up rider, and provider of my own horses for my Alma mater’s show. Are there some issues with the organization? Of course, but tell me an organization that doesn’t have it’s own problems? Every show I went to the horses, good, bad, and ugly, were treated with respect and kindness. Sportsmanship and horsemanship was required, not suggested. Can shows be hard on horses? Yes, but many programs manage their school horses very carefully to ensure they have a positive overall experience the day of the show.

The organization is such a unique set up, I can’t think of any way a rider like me, from very limited means could have gotten that much show experience. It wasn’t just about the shows though, it was about the chance to learn to rider different horses, some so much nicer than I had every had a chance to sit on in my life, it is about learning to be part of a team, and experience joy and disappointment without losing your class and sense of gratitude to the host school and the horses for giving you a chance to ride that day. It is about learning to deal with show nerves, and working hard. It is about making connections, and building networks–some of my IHSA team mates are now my clients, and I am some of their clients. IHSA helped us find our way in the industry.

I came in as an experienced rider in some senses, but due to limited means, I had never gotten to ride “made” horses–I made my own. My time on the IHSA team taught me how to ride with more finesse, a (much) better position, and dramatically improved my ability to really ride a course.

One of my most favorite IHSA experiences now, was taking 2 of MY horses back to use at the show last year. Getting to let other kids who might not have gotten to ride well educated horses as much, get to ride them. Seeing my horse put a huge smile on a college student’s face–even when she dropped her leg off at the canter and he broke gate–she still thanked me, and told me how wonderful it felt to ride a horse like that. And I know exactly how it felt, IHSA taught me how to ride better, and in turn, how to train my own horses better.

OP, I would encourage you to talk to some of the officials in your region, rather than just send a note to your coach, the organization deserves the opportunity to address this situation.

I just want to echo a lot of the sentiments in this post. The IHSA is such a great organization, and its format have made showing and learning available for a lot of talented and serious people in this sport without the means to own and campaign their own horses. I know of several high caliber professionals who came from modest means and proved their skill through IHSA programs.

It was also my great honor to offer my own horse for IHSA nationals a few years ago, give back to an organization that had offered me a lot–and to see him get great rides from appreciative students.

That said, there are obviously huge variations in riding quality and horse quality at any individual show. And it is not the right format for every horse, obviously. But I disagree with commenters who call for abolishing the format altogether.

[Wanderosa]

@Arelle

I may be the voice of dissent here, but IMO a little ace is the lesser of the various evils and I think you’re probably overreacting if your instinct is to immediately quit the team.

Overlooking the legality of which substances are allowed vs banned for ISHA competition (because I honestly don’t know)… you mentioned the coach drugged a “couple” of the horses. It doesn’t sound like every horse on the property was doped up.

A lot of the horses in the ISHA programs I’m aware of are donated - they usually won’t vet or have some other issue (age, talent, whatever) that makes them hard to sell privately. YOU don’t know what the circumstance is, OP. Maybe - like you said - it’s kinder for them to have a little cocktail on board versus running them into the ground in a round pen. Maybe the coach is working on their training and making them school horses, but in the interest of rider safety she felt it would be better to have some sedation on board versus an injured rider. The ISHA shows I’ve seen have been a bit like a 4H nightmare - some kids are super talented, others hadn’t ridden a day in their life and then tried out because of the electives their college offered.

If the college is routinely drugging every single horse just to get through a show, then you have issues. If the coach is making a judgement call to prevent injury to horse or rider, but working to prepare the horse better each time (through more training and different pre show routines) - then I would personally be pretty happy to be riding with a coach that has that much self awareness who can plan for potential issues. Drugging may not be the “go to” answer, but at least the question is being asked.

My children have participated in a winter league that has a similar structure to ISHA. It gets rough because most barns realistically have a very limited number of horses that can be relied on to stay reasonably safe and sane through the entire meet. The winter league meets are several hours, it’s freezing cold, and you have more people than the horse is used to seeing in a month suddenly milling around one end of a tiny indoor. One of our (thankfully very good) child riders was the last rider of the day on what had been a fairly calm pony up to that point. It bucked going into the first canter. No big deal. Reversed directions and the judge asked the riders to canter. This horse bucked so high that it looked like it’s tail hit our rider’s helmet. And it continued on several paces at rodeo level intensity. They ended up removing the pony and having our rider canter by herself on a borrowed horse. It’s just a lot to ask of a horse. Physically and mentally. Setting aside the legalities because I’m honestly not familiar - I’d rather see a few slightly marginal horses aced down a bit so they can be put into rotation and take some of the burden off the 100% solid citizens.

[Moesha]

I loved my time in the IHSA program - I had my horse at school with me which was doubly nice- I have to say it was one of the most rewarding and awesome programs I have done with horses from the regular shows to ANRC it was a blast!!! I learned so much that I am very grateful and thankful for. We got to ride so many different horses both at home and at the shows- I can’t say enough things about how much I loved it. AS for this situation - hey- not every situation works for everyone- move on- I for one am thankful for the great coaching and horses we had at my University and the great horses we got to ride from the other Universities in our area.