WWYD—coach drugging horses

[eqsiu]

@JustTheTicket

Not really, when eqsiu’s argument was that its unethical in and of itself to just break a rule. So it’s hard to argue ethics when you are unethical yourself by speeding. If you truly believed that breaking rules, ie speeding, is unethical, you wouldn’t do it.

I wouldn’t bet on people being 100% ethical all the time. We all decide what our personal stance on some things is, and doesn’t always align with rule-making bodies. Hence, someone who speeds can think that drugging a horse is wrong. This is why my alignment is true neutral lol.

[anon6003733]

del

[RugBug]

@JustTheTicket

Not really, when eqsiu’s argument was that its unethical in and of itself to just break a rule. So it’s hard to argue ethics when you are unethical yourself by speeding. If you truly believed that breaking rules, ie speeding, is unethical, you wouldn’t do it.

I’m not sure that I would hang my hat on ‘breaking any rule is unethical.’ I do believe it’s wrong, which is a lesser standard in my book. And that just because a lot (or most) people do it, it doesn’t make it ‘right.’

I also don’t believe that doing something unethical in one area makes you unethical in all. I guess that’s the no one is perfect argument and if you wait to find some that is before you allow them any sort of voice, you are silencing most (all?) of the population.

[vxf111]

@RugBug

So, I’m the one that posted about riding the horses over the course for a week. I never said I was horrified…that was all you. I’m not horrified, although I do find it a bit suspect. It provides an edge. But if those who have done IHSA say that it all evens out, I’m fine with that.

You’re apparently very upset, (and I agree some of the posters on this thread are quite over the top) but don’t make something out of what isn’t there.

I would also recognize that California has controls on drugging at shows like this that other states don’t have. Those state drug testers will show up at the tiniest of schooling shows…so it creates a bit of a deterrent.

Re: the horses getting ridden over the courses…

At least how I saw it done ALL the horses were schooled over the courses and THEN the draw happened. So all the horses were equally prepped and the odds of the rider who schooled being the one who drew THAT horse was 100% random lottery. Often girls who were not even showing or were not the point rider did the schooling rides.

I don’t think I ever rode a horse I had ridden in a lesson at an IHSA show, even the ones we hosted. I rode the same donkey@ss mare (I joke I joke) in every lesson but they didn’t make people put up with her shenanigans at home shows so she was never even in the pool for me to draw.

[findeight]

Bit surprised this is still on top of the page. But it is a good discussion for the most part and a reminder not to go on appearances or sweet talking but look under the hood regardless of if it’s a public barn, private barn, school barn, hosting barn or whatever. Really know what goes on and how the horses are managed, your horse or any horse you get aboard. And don’t judge one by the actions of another. There’s good training barns and crap ones, school programs should not be expected to be any different, do your research.

Later posts by OP have me thinking there’s more going on then she shared and that she has the resume to understand what she’s seen and heard. Just needed a little help thinking about the right decision for her situation, maybe. Certainly no need to explain further or defend herself.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

I think @findeight 's last post nailed it and wrapped it up with a bow. I would extend a bit by saying that any single person’s experiences in any equine organization that includes showing or some form of competition (4-H, Pony Club, IEA, IDA, etc, etc,) is going to be highly variable based on where you are and the folks involved in running the shows (literally).

[AllSport]

I didn’t read all of the posts…so very many! The original poster mentioned these horses were a bit old and rickety, and that the substance in the syringe was yellow like Ace. Its just a thought, but Meloxicam is also yellow. I don’t think its approved in the US for use in horses but it is in Canada. I’m not sure what color the liquid form of Carprofen is unfortunately. Either way, could it be possible they were anti-inflammatory drugs instead? Both drugs are listed as controlled not banned under the 2018 Equine Prohibited Substances List. My dog always gets Carprofen right before a long hike–it’d be cruel not to give to her, yet more cruel to leave her home!

[Posting_Trot]

@AllSport

I didn’t read all of the posts…so very many! The original poster mentioned these horses were a bit old and rickety, and that the substance in the syringe was yellow like Ace. Its just a thought, but Meloxicam is also yellow. I don’t think its approved in the US for use in horses but it is in Canada. I’m not sure what color the liquid form of Carprofen is unfortunately. Either way, could it be possible they were anti-inflammatory drugs instead? Both drugs are listed as controlled not banned under the 2018 Equine Prohibited Substances List. My dog always gets Carprofen right before a long hike–it’d be cruel not to give to her, yet more cruel to leave her home!

Sometimes it pays to read the entire thread. OP said in a later post that not only was the substance yellow, it was also in a vial labeled as Ace.

[enjoytheride]

@Groom&Taxi

I think @findeight 's last post nailed it and wrapped it up with a bow. I would extend a bit by saying that any single person’s experiences in any equine organization that includes showing or some form of competition (4-H, Pony Club, IEA, IDA, etc, etc,) is going to be highly variable based on where you are and the folks involved in running the shows (literally).

I think the takeaway for me are the number of posters (and one in particular) who are advocating strongly for Ace being no big deal at certain types of shows. If ACE is no big deal, damn the rules, in IHSA, then couldn’t it also be no big deal at local shows? If they have no ethical considerations regarding drugging and jumping horses what other things are they not concerned about? Changing a horse’s name so it can show as pregreen? It’s not just the fact that people are fine with what clearly is a rules violation, but that they are so brazen about it. Do you want to show against someone who casually tosses about bottles of Ace? Or train with them? We’ve seen how flippant big name trainers are when they get their hands slapped and we clamor for change, but how many people really care?

[findeight]

Eh, I don’t think some who “advocated for it” are that much in favor of it or endorsing it, just addressing the reality it’s the best of two bad choices for some programs. Some were clear they considered it cheating and chose not to ride in those programs too. A choice all have. The thing that makes it more difficult is not owning the horse or having any say in its management, Too many programs take advantage of that to put non owning riders over a barrel, accept the way it is or don’t ride.

How this relates to local show is a whole other thread. True, more owners who do have a voice there whether they use it or not. And still many non owners who don’t know or do and don’t want to lose the ride.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

@enjoytheride

I think the takeaway for me are the number of posters (and one in particular) who are advocating strongly for Ace being no big deal at certain types of shows. If ACE is no big deal, damn the rules, in IHSA, then couldn’t it also be no big deal at local shows? If they have no ethical considerations regarding drugging and jumping horses what other things are they not concerned about? Changing a horse’s name so it can show as pregreen? It’s not just the fact that people are fine with what clearly is a rules violation, but that they are so brazen about it. Do you want to show against someone who casually tosses about bottles of Ace? Or train with them? We’ve seen how flippant big name trainers are when they get their hands slapped and we clamor for change, but how many people really care?

Specifically with regard to ace, wasn’t there some big name hunter trainer in the last year or two who actually wrote in COTH advocating that ace be made legal for showing hunters in USE?

Never mind the question, I googled. It was Ernie Oare, in the Horseman’s Forum, March 21-28 2016 issue of COTH. A big name - and judge - who plays at the top of the sport basically said that ace should be legal for showing hunters - because it would make things better for the horses. If that is the attitude at the top of sanctioned levels of sport in the US, it shouldn’t be any surprise that it trickles down all the way to the grass roots.

[findeight]

Ernie Oare is not the only one publically questioning its prohibition. Some surprisingly well known and respected names agree and make some thoughtful points. Difference is they aren’t getting caught with positives and are abiding by the current rules. I don’t agree with them btw. But I understand their reasoning.

[enjoytheride]

If my farrier refuses to get under a horse that has been aced to make shoeing easier I certainly don’t want to jump it over fences.

[Mardi]

@Arelle

I may be the voice of dissent here, but IMO a little ace is the lesser of the various evils and I think you’re probably overreacting if your instinct is to immediately quit the team.

If the coach is choosing and dispensing controlled medications without a vet license to horses that are not his, he’s doing it illegally. And I don’t mean illegal in the sense of horse show rules, although that is surely illegal as well. If he gives an IV injection and something goes wrong, who will pay the vet bills ? Will he ? Probably not.

I would run, not walk, from a “coach” who did this.

[4LeafCloverFarm]

@Mardi

If the coach is choosing and dispensing controlled medications without a vet license to horses that are not his, he’s doing it illegally. And I don’t mean illegal in the sense of horse show rules, although that is surely illegal as well. If he gives an IV injection and something goes wrong, who will pay the vet bills ? Will he ? Probably not.

Not just vet bills either. What if an older horse that was injected, had a reaction to the ACE (or whatever), and had a heart attack while jumping a three foot course? What then? The horse dies, the rider is injured… all to just go on with the show. This is hypothetical of course, and did not happen in this instance. But what if?

[gottagrey]

@alter3974

Why do I feel like I’m being cross examined here? Jesus. I posted about a concerning event at an IHSA show; if you think I’m making all of it up feel free to ignore the entire thread instead of bumping it back up to the top.

And yes, just because a horse is older with possible soundness issues does not preclude it from coming out fresh on an unseasonably cold morning. And “nearly the whole team knew” that the horses had received Ace before the conversation occurred so I’m not sure what you’re getting at there. My coaches stuck a needle in those horse’s necks in front of everyone in the barn.

I’m not sure what the last part of your post means. “I might come across this sort of thing again”? As a junior I did the equitation and was luckily enough to show at lots of different venues, some of which were intimidating for the horses without room to lunge (think Devon). Of course this isn’t an exact equivalent to an IHSA situation, BUT my horse never got so much as a tube of perfect prep. I think I’ll manage to find a barn that doesn’t Ace the horses for riding.

Sorry I didn’t mean to come off as cross examining, but more as Devil’s Advocate. Plenty of people think they see things that aren’t necessarily the case and other times they definitely see things you don’t approve of. In reading your posts, the drugging has gone from a couple of riders witnessing, to a group talking about it, to this latest post saying your coach drugged the horse with ACE in front of everyone in the whole barn. As mentioned previously, I felt that if your coach has never given you any reason to doubt their professionalism then give them the benefit of the doubt - this time. If your coach has given you reason to doubt their professionalism then you’re better off leaving. My comment about you might run into this sort of thing again -that was not meant as a reflection on you, but on a number of trainers in our sport who seem to manage to find new methods in which to “enhance” their horses performance. And what’s so ridiculous is you have these really great trainers/pro riders who you’d think wouldn’t need any chemical “enhancement” yet sometimes they get caught and are fined/suspended.

To add - I didn’t read all the posts on this thread, and caught up with a couple, and I agree with FindEight in post 145.

[Cita]

@supershorty628

I feel like some of you guys have an exaggeratedly negative opinion of how IHSA shows work without actually having done it or really been involved with it.

(Disclaimer: I don’t think acing the horses is right under any condition)

I did IHSA in undergrad in a region where we may have had some of the more interesting horses to ride - we’re not an East Coast area that gets really nice animals donated, and some schools had nicer horses than others, but it was pretty tightly regulated how many classes each horse was doing. Certain horses were only for Open, certain horses only did Intermediate and Novice, some only did Novice, etc. I saw it from the competing side, as at the time my school didn’t host any shows, but I also helped prep horses for one of the schools nearby when I wasn’t showing anymore. There was no longeing or riding them hard beforehand - they got hacked around and jumped over the course once or twice for everyone to see, and that was it.

Maybe some of these programs are overworking their horses, and maybe some people aren’t good at managing the horse shows, but don’t throw an entire organization and format under the bus without having experienced it.

I have also ridden IHSA in 2 different zones, both very un-funded club teams (though reasonably competitive zones), and was AGHAST at some of these responses. I never saw or heard of a horse being aced. I’ve seen plenty of horses letting a not-well-matched rider know that they were Not Having It, and have seen plenty of horses pulled and re-rides issued, but never the drugging or over-work that some people are describing here as “routine.” When I hosted, our biggest concern was generally making sure not to ride the horses too much before the show, since we wanted them to have enough energy left for the last classes of the day (generally walk-trot).

I love IHSA, and therefore believe strongly that standards of ethics and horsemanship MUST be strictly enforced.

[anon6003733]

del

[Classic]

I do not think anyone should be comfortable jumping an aced horse. It is a safety issue for both horse and rider.

[Tackpud]

@touchstone-

I just want to echo a lot of the sentiments in this post. The IHSA is such a great organization, and its format have made showing and learning available for a lot of talented and serious people in this sport without the means to own and campaign their own horses. I know of several high caliber professionals who came from modest means and proved their skill through IHSA programs.

It was also my great honor to offer my own horse for IHSA nationals a few years ago, give back to an organization that had offered me a lot–and to see him get great rides from appreciative students.

That said, there are obviously huge variations in riding quality and horse quality at any individual show. And it is not the right format for every horse, obviously. But I disagree with commenters who call for abolishing the format altogether.

Thanks for lending your horse to nationals!! The support of people who will lend their horses to shows is invaluable in this organization. I hope you had a great experience at nationals and IHSA made it fun for you and your horse.