WWYD if your horse injured a trainer?

[Equisis]

OP, in response to your original query- if your horse injures a trainer because you have failed to disclose issues, deliberately misled the trainer regarding the horse’s behavior, or otherwise created an unsafe situation, then you need to reevaluate what you’re doing. If your horse injures a trainer because **** happens with horses, well, that’s life. It’s up to the trainer to decide what they are comfortable riding, and it’s your responsibility to provide them with all the necessary info they need to make that determination.

I have to disagree with the person who said that trainers who travel aren’t worth their salt. Speaking as a trainer who travels, there are a number of reasons for my business model, not the least of which is that I have no desire to board horses anymore, so I take on 2-3 full training horses at my place and travel to the rest (mostly lessons, but a handful of training horses as well). Most of my training clients also ride the horse themselves and are based at home or small community barns, so it is far more convenient to keep the horse in the environment in which he will ultimately need to function, and give the owner as much opportunity as possible to be a part of the process. Obviously this doesn’t work for all of them, and there are some that need enough dedicated time that they need to come to me, but overall I have found this model to work very well- and I have work coming out of my ears with a decent waiting list, so it appears that my clients agree

I am picky about what I ride, and after having a few new clients “lie by omission” when describing their issues, I have learned to ask very leading questions prior to getting on. I think there is a belief among some people (beginners in particular) that pros will ride anything; I try to be clear with my clients that I rely on my health to work and support myself, and that I am not going to be the right trainer for every horse. I’m not in the business of blowing smoke or bleeding clients for money when I know a horse is beyond my boundaries.

It’s also very important to me that clients be willing to reframe their approach when it comes to dealing with problematic behaviors. I repeatedly get calls from riders who are dealing with bucking/napping/etc because their “horse is a jerk”, and I arrive to find a horse whose attempts at communication have been ignored for so long that he has finally resorted to his last option- dump the rider. The rider has to totally step back, learn how to actually communicate with the horse, and rebuild the trust that was lost in order to prevent that escalation from recurring. I also see people who have anthropomorphized their horses to death, and have created dangerous horses with no boundaries, because they’re blinded by a fairytale notion of “bonding”. Both of these situations are hazardous and devolving, and if the rider can’t re-frame his or her approach, we won’t make any progress.

OP, after skimming your past posts, it seems like this horse is a bad fit. I hate to judge without knowing the people in question, but it also sounds like you don’t have good, consistent support in the form or a trainer or mentor. These things together don’t breed success. I would consider what you want out of horse ownership- riding, learning, enjoyment, whatever- and have a serious think about whether this horse is the one with which you can achieve that.

[2bayboys]

@danhelm441

On an unrelated note, the trainer let me know someone in her network might be willing to take him for what I paid for him. So I would be out the money I spent on his training, but I’d be willing to let that go as the price of the education I got in my time owning him. I hate to let him go because he’s a pet at this point, we’ve made tremendous progress even if it’s just cruising around on the rail with a loop in the reins, and I do love him. But I’m definitely weighing the pros and cons. I like the idea of him flourishing in more experienced hands, and also no longer feeling like I am doing everything in my riding life on “hard mode.”

My goodness OP I hope you’re not hesitating to follow up on this potential buyer. If you can get anything even close to what you paid for him, that is a gift from the gods. He is two years older with nothing appreciable added to his resume. I’m hoping for you that it works out and you can find something else to enjoy without worrying that it will melt down over the normal demands of being a riding horse.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I just have to agree with everything you said, and also add that my favorite trainer of all time was a “traveling” trainer. She was an eventer, but she also coached riders in dressage, plus it allowed her to meet her clients more frequently at the local horse park for schooling cross-country. Especially in high COL areas, some great people just can’t afford their own facility, and her husband was in the military and traveled frequently, so it didn’t make sense to put down ties.

I also agree that the better the pro, the more picky the pro can be about the horses they get on–and if the horse had a reputation before you bought him you weren’t aware of, that might also be a factor in not finding a suitable trainer. Even some very nice horses for a beginner-intermediate level rider are advertised as for riders in a program/under the supervision of a trainer only.

[SonnysMom]

Disclaimer- I have largely skimmed through the thread.

Quite frankly if this current sale opportunity falls through I would either keep as a pasture pet if you can afford to or euthanize. I made the euthanize decision on an OTTB I had. I spent thousands and thousands of dollars or diagnostics and treatment with no clear diagnosis. The vet is a well known local vet that has 2 Olympians as his clients.
The horse was getting progressively worse under saddle. He was not a candidate for being a companion horse since he ate a crap ton of food and was a pest to other horses he was turned out with. He bothered them until he would get kicked. Eventually he was going to be seriously injured.

It finally came to a head when I had an awful dressage lesson in his home farm of 3 years, spooking at a door he has been past tons of times. I worked through it until somebody went past the door and we were back to him refusing to go past the door and being ugly about it. Trainer got on and she had to fight pretty hard with him to get it done. I would have hit the ground.

Next day, lovely light dressage lesson and then loaded him up for a trail ride with a friend. We made it 300 yards or so before he spooked at something in the distance. It was nasty, drop the shoulder and spin. I came off. Cracked my helmet. I walked back to the trailer and made the decision nobody was getting on this horse again.

I spoke extensively with the rescue he came from and based on the training, the diagnostics we tried, the Dr. Green and the treatments that euthanizing him was the best option. He was not happy being ridden and quite frankly I am not sure he was happy being turned out. He was kept out about 21 hours a day unless the weather was really bad. I do not regret my decision. This horse trashed my confidence. It sounds like I am a bit more advanced rider than you but not a world beater. My horse was gorgeous. I did not want to risk somebody being sucked into “Well he looks sound, lets try to ride him and getting hurt”

If the sale works out for your horse I would jump at that assuming they are well aware of the risks with this horse. If not, he should become a pasture pet or be euthanized.

[Atlas_Shrugged]

Make sure your trainer has the requisite insurance. She seems to know the horse (eg you have not presented him as “safe, etc”). Having said that, maybe ask her to recommend someone who works with “difficult” horses to sit on him. I know my trainer, who is tiny, and extremely skilled, has lots of old injuries and I would never put her on any of my green or difficult horses. I would ask her who to sent the horse to,

[BrownDerby]

Yes, but. If you visit OP’s past threads the horse has already been put through several ‘fixers.’ Between this, no diagnostics, and an owner new to horses I would bet his brain is fried.

[findeight]

Would also bet she’s about out of money for yet another “fixer”.

[candyappy]

@Mander

OP said they previously tried a 30-day bute trial with no positive behavioral changes.

Bute won’t erase all issues of pain though. It may dull it but if it has gone on long enough the horse can still feel and also anticipate the pain and react to that.

Hopefully the person who expressed interest will have a good test ride if it gets that far? I would suggest several rides and only sell if it looks like they are a good fit for each other? If any doubt I would not pass him on.

Sounds like he needs a low expectations kind of riding situation since he has made progress with you doing just that.

[Mander]

No disagreement - many people had just suggested a bute trial but had missed that OP had already tried that.

[blue_heron]

I would bet money that there was a past issue that caused him to learn this behavior, no one followed up with diagnostics OR the behavior, and now you have a horse that may anticipate pain and act out or has been asked to do so little for so long that he takes offense at being asked to do work. I still think a good trainer is in order, while or even before a vet is involved.

@SonnysMom is making a very good point. I rode a horse that was a chronic bolter/spooker combination-- I do think something was hurting him intermittently, but I didn’t own him and the owners made it clear that we would be splitting bills for vet stuff. That was money I didn’t have. I cringe at how much money I spent on that horse. I could have bought a safe horse twice. I was as fair as I could be to him, but I also don’t think he was fair to me at times. Unless we’re being pursued by a lion, tiger, or a swarm of bees, bolting is an unacceptable behavior to me. I can sit a buck much better than a bolt. That horse broke bones and my confidence. I loved him and when I sent him back I was deeply relieved that he wasn’t my problem anymore.

You never actually said what your horse did with the trainer. I know I said previously that if you don’t like the trainer, but consider that this experience doesn’t necessarily mean the trainer is a bad trainer and like others have mentioned, we can only tell so much from a one-sided story. A barn friend had a young warmblood who was started late because of all kinds of health problems as a young horse. He was cleared for work by an excellent vet. Barn friend gave him to trainer for a month of training. He was so bad she kept him four months. There were some moments that had I been an uninformed bystander, I would have thought bad of my trainer. He had simply learned that his job was to hang out and was deeply offended that anyone would expect him to work for them.

If you have money to spare, I might send him to a trainer for the winter. I don’t think I’d prioritize convenience here, but the best trainer you can find closest to you. Trainer shop, ask for recs on Facebook/here under a fake name, etc. Ask for updates at whatever interval makes you feel confident and see what horse you get back in the spring. If he blows it with this trainer, I seriously would consider retirement or euthanasia. There are too many good horses out there to spend your life with one that scares you. The best decision is the one that makes you feel safe.

Also know that I completely understand how hard it is to be a “beginner” and try to make the right decisions and take everyone’s advice into consideration.

[touchstone]

OP had received a lot of good advice about what to do with her specific situation.

I just wanted to answer her question in a more general way. I would feel really, really terrible, and I would probably feel some sort of financial obligation to help the professional get to the other side of their injury too.

I hear all the people talking about legal liability. And this is obviously a dangerous sport, where accidents happen. But horse professionals face so much risk to their livelihood in their work. They have no workman’s compensation insurance, and often have no way to earn a living if they are not physically sound. If my dangerous horse hurt someone who was not a specialist in rehabbing dangerous horses, I know I would feel a lot of ethical pressure to help them out more than whatever the law requires.

[MapleBreeze]

Whats the breeding of the horse and how much? it sounds like the trainer didnt know what she was doing, he has a history, and hes a lot of horse.

Can we see a picture of him?

[candyappy]

@Mander

No disagreement - many people had just suggested a bute trial but had missed that OP had already tried that.

I know . I may have written it wrong but I was just adding to what you posted . Not challenging it

[Jaegermonster]

And it would be well deserved

[akhunterrider]

I have been following your situation, but I was not sure what to say.

A little backstory on me: I am 35 and I’ve been riding since I was 9 years old. I’m a competent, though not amazing rider. Possibly slightly better than your average adult amateur. 10 years ago, I’d ride nearly anything and I pretty much did. I bought an inexpensive project horse whose previous owner had stopped riding him due to him popping up on his front end. I don’t count it as rearing, but that’s only because he was so uphill that it was incredibly easy for him to pop up. He was kind of a jerk, but he never hurt me. We worked through our issues and he became a really fun horse.

During a particularly difficult time in my life a couple years after I sold that horse, I bought a horse with only 30 days under saddle. Biggest mistake of my life. Was I capable of riding the horse? Yes. Was I prepared for the green horse antics? Absolutely not. I kept the horse way longer than I should have. Fortunately he was not dangerous in the least and found a perfect home with someone who didn’t have the fear and baggage that I had.

Point being, don’t keep the wrong horse. I feel like at this point you have done more than your fair share to try and figure things out and make things work with this horse. I completely understand wanting to recoup some of your investment, but to what end? I don’t feel like this is a safe horse. He’s seconds away from a massive blow up. If you can find someone who will take him, great, but otherwise I don’t think euthanasia would be out of line at this point.

I know this is not what you want to hear, but life is too short to ride explosive or dangerous horses. Or even just the wrong horse period. Most of us ride horses for fun and when the fun is taken away it’s just not worth the money anymore.

I’d love to own my own horse again, but at this point in my life I’m not willing to just settle for any horse. If/when I own a horse again, it will be carefully selected and not something I settle for simply just to have a horse.

[ElementFarm]

I think that having someone hurt on your horse AND on your property is somehow different than a rider coming off the horse at their own place.

I had a young import a few years ago that had a tendency to over jump and jump HARD over new jumps, especially schooling the first day of a horse show. A local coach I worked with on/off agreed to show him for me, and she ended up breaking her hand on his neck the first jump of schooling day. Other than I felt bad, I didn’t need to do anything. She’s a professional, and it’s her job to take risks that she’s comfortable with. She felt bad that she couldn’t show the horse, and brought in a friend/colleague to show him for me instead. The horse wasn’t inherently dangerous, just green and expressive. Her job as rider/trainer was to help him through that behavior, and in that case, just bad luck.

However, it’s quite different, in my mind at least, for a rider to be injured on my horse at my place. I do have my own farm and work with a few trainers that come to me (this is very common in my area, and many trainers have a good 50% or more of their clientele as either haul-ins or travel to’s.) I’m struggling to find the root cause of my opinion that it’s “just different”, and I think it’s because even the most skilled catch rider will not know a horse well when they only see it once a week for an hour. If a horse is in their program, they’ll interact with it daily, handle it through feeding and turn-out, and likely will be riding it more often so they can afford to start out a little more conservatively than when they’re trying to work through an issue at an owner’s place.

Perhaps sending the horse to the trainer for 30 days for a baseline assessment and foundational training would help, and then have that rider continue to pro-ride and teach at your place following?
– And TBH, without knowing any of the details, if a the horse is that quirky and potentially dangerous that no one can ride him besides you, either at the trainer’s or at your farm, I’d be doing some deep soul-searching to see if that’s a horse I’m comfortable having in my program.

I’ve got some quirky or reactive horses, and I appreciate a good pro helping work through the issues that I, as the wimpy amateur, am not. But none of mine are to the point of “frightening to watch”, and that would raise some pretty hard questions in my mind.

[CHT]

Yes, Bute won’t touch neurological. Gabapentin will, but it also makes some horses tired/compliant so can give a false sense of working.

[akhunterrider]

Coming back to add that when I had my green horse, a local trainer (also my farrier’s wife) agreed to come help me with the horse at my place because I was uncomfortable adding a new place to my other fears at that point. It was incredibly helpful for me. The horse turned out to be having some pain issues related to saddle fit (which I found out after he dumped me into the dirt a couple times). I also had a friend try to come help exercise my horse at my place when I was pregnant with my first child and unable to ride. She got on him, applied leg and hand pressure at the same time and he immediately dumped her into the dirt. I felt horribly that is happened, but thankfully she was not seriously injured. She assumed the risk of riding a horse that had been out of work for a while and ended up riding him again with no issues.

Ultimately it was not a long term riding situation (it was fall and there wasn’t a ton of daylight), but after that I didn’t have anyone ride my horse at my place due to the risks associated. He did get some training rides elsewhere and was eventually sold. But he was not a dangerous horse. Just green and expressive when tack was not fitting as well as he was comfortable with.

[Equestrian24]

As someone who has BTDT with a very difficult horse and did everything on “hard mode” as well, I echo the suggestions to jump on this offer! It was not worth it to me to persist for as long as I did, and I actually regret it now.

[Jaegermonster]

Sell him. Yesterday .