Shot in the dark…what about adding magnesium to his diet?
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I’m happy you’re working with a vet. Is there anyway you can give him the winter off (mostly) while doing full investigative workups to determine if his behavior is pain related and / or fixable or in your budget to fix.
You might as well spend the winter while he is home not costing board and training to understand his medical condition to either 1) fix it so he can be your riding horse 2) fix it and have him restarted by a reputable trainer in the spring 3) find out if it even is physical 4) find out if whatever found is fixable 5) find out if whatever is found is fixable and within your budget to provide.
you might be surprised to find something fixable that no one bothered with historically OR you may find something unfixable (severe check ligament damage, neuro diseases, etc.) that renders him not the right horse for you as a growing rider.
Maybe set yourself a $10-$15k limit and if you find that over the winter that it is something fixable - move to treating it. If not then semi-retirement life with you or someone else seems like best option
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I don’t think people quite understood how problematic he was in the prior thread. It sounded as though he was improving and someone knowledgeable was guiding you. This sounds much more dangerous and suspicious of something pain related IMO. Unfortunately, bute trials are not a sure fire way of eliminating soundness issues. From my understanding, hindgut ulcers were also never addressed.
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Concur that a bute trial is likely useless for a horse in moderate to severe pain, I tried this with my KS horse and it made absolutely no change whatsoever. Getting rads and nerve blocks would be a better approach imo.
Good luck, OP. None of us want you to get hurt, but I hope you are able to find the source of the issues. I too was in a similar position (my horse didn’t have behavioral issues related to pain, but did have significant soundness and compensation issues related to pain) - the horse and I aren’t on the journey I thought we would be on when I bought him, but we are on a different journey and that’s okay, too.
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Yes, well said. Concerned for your safety OP and the liability should something go wrong with the trainer.
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Chiming in to say my KS/SI horse also had no response to a bute trial. She had dramatic behavioral issues, both under saddle and (to a lesser extent) on the ground. I would not rule out back/neck on the basis of a bute trial.
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This is where meaningful advice gets difficult to offer, when we only get one version of who said what to whom. Absent things like tone of voice and complete history not to mention budget restrictions, we, the readers, are trying to make an educated guess with incomplete information based on our similar experiences.
For example, the vets remarks. Did the OP ask for a complete evaluation? Or just what the vet thought might be wrong? Did OP specifically ask for back x rays and the vet refuse saying they were often inaccurate? Did the vet suggest bottom up nerve blocks if the Bute test worked because s/he observed gait irregularities? Or does the vet know OP cant afford advanced diagnostics? Or vet does not have the equipment to perform them and a clinic visit would be required?
Bute itself is like aspirin, its cheap and effective on minor pain. Today there are many newer, more effective pain killers out there. But they block the pain message to the brain and reduce inflammation, they don’t fix the source. Nothing is going to touch pain from use/ age degraded joints, pinched cervical/spinal nerves, improperly healed hip fractures or blown double rear suspensories. These things I have personally seen cause the type of behavior described here so thats the advice I can offer.
Look for those if budget allows and understanding there may not be a fix for those. Even if treated, there may be learned bad behavior remaining. Perhaps an easy trail horse life or retirement is an option?
Can OP share how old this horse is supposed to be? Any record of foaling date? Makes a difference.
Has he ever had any joint injections or any imaging work done? There is a huge difference between “seeing a vet” and getting an actual evaluation with diagnostics. Whats his history.
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OP are you the same person with the gray horse and all the difficulty at different barns/trainers and the horse seemed a little neurological? Or am I confusing posters?
You are confusing posters, that person’s username was middletonthegrey or something similar
OP are you the same person with the gray horse and all the difficulty at different barns/trainers and the horse seemed a little neurological? Or am I confusing posters?
No, I don’t think that’s me. I’ve posted before about leaving a cultish classical dressage/natural horsemanship training program, which is where we were before this, but I haven’t had anyone mention my horse being neurological. I did outright ask the vet about it when we were at what I would consider the nadir of our relationship. On an unrelated note, the trainer let me know someone in her network might be willing to take him for what I paid for him. So I would be out the money I spent on his training, but I’d be willing to let that go as the price of the education I got in my time owning him. I hate to let him go because he’s a pet at this point, we’ve made tremendous progress even if it’s just cruising around on the rail with a loop in the reins, and I do love him. But I’m definitely weighing the pros and cons. I like the idea of him flourishing in more experienced hands, and also no longer feeling like I am doing everything in my riding life on “hard mode.”
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I read this whole thread and just want to say - from someone who was told for years that their reactive horse was “just a b*tch” - get those xrays. At the very least, do the back. And maybe the neck.
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Ah yes, different person.
Different poster, my confusion. JUMP ON THIS OFFER!
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OP, if the offer is legit, I’d go for it. Obviously, make sure everything is aboveboard and the buyer isn’t a total yahoo, but still…
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OMG dont let that offer blow up, assuming it was light at the end of the tunnel and not just smoke and mirrors.
Don’t drown in the “maybe, might” pool of apologies and excuses assuming that offer will always be there. If nothing else, think of the horse, he’s no happier with you then you are with him. Since our future is unknown to us, he’s got a brighter future as a useful horse should something happen to you and you have to get out if horses. Wish more would consider that when keeping problematic horses. Our greatest gift to them is keeping them useful.
Call that trainer back and take her up on that offer…suggest you don’t let her sell you another one though.
Oh, and you very, very rarely get money put into training back on older horses. You get what you paid back on this one and you are doing good.
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You would be out the money spent on his training if you’d paid $100K for him. Training (pretty much all horses need pro rides even sporadically) and board are ongoing expenses and shouldn’t be a factor.
Many years ago, I bought an inappropriate horse that was a “bargain.” If I had given him away the first time I thought “Hmm, maybe too much horse for me” I’d be ahead thousands of dollars. Thousands.
I learned from him that this sport costs too much for it not to be fun and that I wouldn’t buy a horse again unless I could ride it outside of lessons and be safe.
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If you can actually sell him with full disclosure for what you paid or really any amount, you should do that. Do not pass go or collect 200 dollars.
If that’s not an option, and I’m of the opinion that selling a dangerous horse without full disclosure is unethical, I am hung up on the vet piece. I haven’t read the old threads but it sounds like this horse is reasonably pleasant until asked to use his neck/back/hind end and then gets frantic and dangerous which would make me want to rule out pain in those areas. 30 days of bite isn’t sufficient to rule that out. I’m sure your vet told you that and I understand trusting the professional, but I personally have pain that Tylenol doesn’t really address and my primary care doc wouldn’t know how to treat. Stopping there and saying if it’s not better after some nsaids it must not exist isn’t really a great plan when you have a horse that is actually dangerous.
OP there’s a couple lessons that a horse like this can teach you, and I know you said you bought him to help teach you more about managing and training horses. I’m sure you hoped the things you would learn would be more fun, but I think it’s either 1. You can’t fix them all; and no persons life or health is worth risking unnecessarily over the kind of horse who goes past its own self preservation and 2. The overwhelming majority of horse owners don’t know how to recognize a horse in pain, the second you think it could be playing into an issue, you should have a full work up done by someone who has an interest in lameness. The 6 visits trying the cheaper ideas add up to more than just getting the imaging up front.
I’m sorry you’re in this situation- it’s something I see play out often and it’s always sad to see.
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Jump on this, it won’t come again.
SELL HIM NOW - JUST DO IT.
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Horses are unfortunately kind of like boats. Not only do you not get any of the maintenance, repairs, upkeep, slip fee, gas or storage back, but the price depreciates the whole time you have it. I have lost SO MUCH MONEY on horses over the past 20 years that, well, let’s just leave it at that.
If it’s a legit offer and a decent home, take it and run. And then buy yourself that lovely off-breed who will go for beach rides or hilltop or go weekend camping with your other horse friends.
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If horses like this were obviously lame it would be easy. But all the things I referred to based on my personal experience and observation were NOT visibly lame. They just got violently defensive when asked to do anything that aggravated previous injury or chronic condition. Tried to remove the rider, fling themselves into the fence or go up and threaten to go over backwards, anything to relieve the pain. But they didn’t limp.
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