This is a great post. I’ve been thinking the exact same things. Thanks for posting this.
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I’ve definitely been one telling OP to move on - and I guess I am implying the choices you have listed.
The biggest crux is - OP is very much an adult beginner and may or may not be hugely reliable with care, narration of what occurs with the training rides etc. Trying to give them benefit of the doubt, but most posters here like myself have 25 years of horse experience and would have thought of all these options if we, too, were indeed sold what is now I think a lemon?
Horse is either a true lemon (problematic and sold to OP by bad trainer who wanted commission) or is a horse that is just beyond OP’s skill level (and unhappy with the possibly uneducated training choices of trainers and coaches). OP is also self admittedly not engrained in the horse community (hard as an adult bopping around the 2’ as a newbie - the horse world can be judgey / cold and often dismiss adult beginners from close barn community friendships e.g. they won’t get their number to hack their 1.10 horse while they’re out of town).
I think there is an option of:
a) Let horse semi retire for the winter (either at home or on another property) with disclosure of his behavior - which I am recalling from previous posts is both poor on the ground aka requiring stud chain and under saddle (explosions in the sky) & find a trainer that will do a full restart in the spring for 90 - 120 days and then sell with restart trainer with explicit disclosure.
Exact same scenario played out with a former barn-mate of mine - yes they lost money. But it was low 5 figures of money over a year vs being terrified to ride more than simple WTC on loose rein indefinitely. Within 18 months of making the above decision, they had purchased new suitable horse and was back out competing.
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OP, I feel for you, too. I had a fairly rank horse who I knew I couldn’t sell because he had a lot of talent but could be very dangerous. He offered to bite and kick on the ground and needed his people to always be calm but alert, and under saddle he was one of the hardest horses I’ve ever sat on. Just a hard brain, defensive, reactive, etc., which was a combination of terrible early training/handling and his particular way of coping with it. I am a pretty advanced rider so I was able to get quite a bit further with him, but he was so incredibly frustrating! I spent time and money on diagnostics, tried this and that modality, worked with different trainers, everything. We got him feeling good in his body but he was mentally very fragile and his reaction was to be aggressive. Incredible jump and 11 years later I can still remember how it felt to canter him, but dang…so difficult!
I knew if I sold him I could probably get a good chunk of money but it would have taken another advanced rider working with a good pro who was also going to have his best interests in mind. And, well…those are hard to find, especially all of them together! So I kept him and did my best to give him a good life and make his job as rewarding as it could be; I lost him to cancer and while I grieved it was definitely somewhat of a relief. I promised myself I would never again get a horse who came with warning labels, as this one had- I knew what I was getting, but did not know the depth of the damage.
Since then I’ve had some challenges in my horses because they are animals, but he was the last one I got that fell in the category of “I wish he was someone else’s problem.” And, at some point had he not gotten sick, I probably would have had to put him down. All of the money, time, and effort in the world can’t fix some things.
Horses are a wonderful thing to have in our lives, and we should be able to go to the barn feeling excited, not dreading what we might have on any given day! Good luck and take care of yourself, whatever you decide.
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Get a new coach/trainer. She crossed the line of being assertive to being aggressive, having to “teach” the horse whose the boss. All training is breaking it down into small steps that eventually add up to correct outcome. Your coach/trainer is full of BS and is completely ignorant or unwilling to listen to your horse saying no that he can’t and /or doesn’t understand the question being asked long before the massive blowup.
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This trainer sounds like she’s either beyond her abilities or has something to prove, but it is incredibly difficult to explain feel and nuance to “beginners”-- which can be people who have ridden for years. My mother has been riding basically her whole life but has no sense of feel or how to actually sit on the horse. Every time she makes contact with the horses mouth she says she feels like she’s pulling. I tried desperately to explain that you drive the horse forward and “catch” the energy. She still doesn’t understand why our horses could be reactive with her and not with me.
Also adding: this very well could be a “normal” behavioural response from a horse who has been asked to do nothing and gotten its own way for a long time, and then is suddenly asked to participate in something other than dinking around on the rail. Anyone who says they’ve never had an ugly moment on the longe line is lying.
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As for what to do with the trainer, I would just never talk to them again-- it doesn’t sound like they’re at your barn. Trainers know why they weren’t hired back. If they reach out, tell them you weren’t happy with how the session went or how you treated their horse. There doesn’t need to be a discussion. But, if I were you, I’d find another trainer willing to help you sell this horse and find another one that’s a better match.
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Sorry, but no - to establish contact, you send the horse forward INTO the hand. The hand remains a soft, steady contact, a safe place for the horse to be. If you are “pulling back,” you’re punishing the horse for going forward to begin with. You should never see the hands move when trying to establish contact; they remain steady, the horse is sent forward to work from behind, and you should see the soft, steady contact begin to happen.
Even if the trainer was half-halting (or attempting to), one should not see the hand move backwards. The hand closes on the rein at the same moment you are asking for the forward movement, in order to contain the movement into impulsion.
OP, what you describe is someone setting your horse up for failure. There’s a huge difference between asking a horse for contact vs. forcing a horse into a frame, which is what I envision by what you describe. The horse had nothing else to DO but express his frustration with a lack of clear riding aids. Contact can only be achieved when the horse goes forward willingly.
Do you ever work him long and low, on a loose rein, asking him to stretch over the topline? Does he respond to the leg at all? Does he go forward on the lunge? Have you had him fully vetted for things such as kissing spine, or arthritis in the hocks?
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If you erase what I have in parenthesis, which is word for word how the OP who is a beginner described it, it is verbatim what you wrote.
So yes. I agree. I’m saying a beginner might not know exactly what that looks like and interpreted it as they saw fit.
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They are, but as someone who has been in a similar situation (for different reasons) at a certain point the cost of retirement is less than the cost ($$ and emotionally) of continuing to try to fix something you can’t fix. I got lucky in that I did find a safe home for my non-rideable horse, and I do think there are some out there (although extremely rare and generally through a personal connection).
Dealing with unpredictable and explosive behavior takes a toll. It makes horses less enjoyable and shakes your confidence - especially when you’re newer to the sport. But I do think everyone has to get there in their own time. It took 3 trainers for me to realize I needed to move on, maybe this thread will be the start. I think we all hope it happens before OP gets hurt.
There are not any good options. There are only less bad options. From a lot being described in this thread, having OP continue to sink emotional labor and money into the horse sounds like the most bad option. OP - I very much feel for you and the situation you are in.
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But my point is that the casual observer should not see the hands move.
There is no “pulling back” in a half-halt. The hand simply stops giving for a moment while the other aids send the horse forward.
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It still looks like pulling to a beginner. See my comment from the “barn expert” about pulling on my horses mouth, which I most certainly was not doing. If someone’s used to a horse that goes around on little to no contact or loopy reins, setting the hand “shorter” if you will can certainly appear to be pulling.
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Love this post.
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My horse would lose his mind if he was “trained” in this manner. He’d have no problem letting her know it either and dump her ass on the ground.
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Love this one too.
It sounds to me like the owner has the tact and patience to be the solution to the horse, not the problem. I think the issue is that the owner was not meaning to be a solution to a problem horse but to enjoy riding and training with friends.
Congratulations to the owner for helping the horse. Lots of tough choices here. All horses teach us, maybe not what we planned to learn at the time but it’s all valuable.
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From going through the OP’s prior threads I think this horse has been to what, four :fixers" in a year ? And the back/wither soreness was never addressed? Or was it? And still no rads? Also this poster felt that a rearer was not a problem.
So we have absolutely no idea what is going on or has been done.
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A properly executed half-halt should not give anyone the idea that the hands are moving. It should not appear that they are being pulled, for sure. It doesn’t matter if the observer is a beginner or not. They should not have that impression.
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Has a full soundness exam been performed on this horse? With back and neck rads?
Personally, you’ve gone so far down this road if I were there I don’t think I want to spend the money on it… However he could have some really serious problems that you don’t even know about.
If you want to throw more money at it, you need to get him to the closest teaching hospital, and have them do a real exam. Including potential nuclear scintigraphy.
I know he “doesn’t trailer” but I bet you could find a real pro, drug him, and get him on. You are being held hostage by this horse. I myself would not spend another dime on Diagnostics, but after rereading things I really have a feeling you have not done a complete job in terms of discovery.
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This horse sounds very psychologically damaged. There may be a physical component. No way from what has been posted on any threads does the OP sound like they have any tools to use for a good outcome
OP admit you are over horsed and in a losing situation. Go find a reputable trainer who will match your needs to an honest Schoolmaster. A schoolmaster is not a been there done that schoolie but a horse you can genuinely learn dressage concepts on
Personally, this is not a horse I would pass on.
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When I consulted a vet about this, she recommended starting with the bute trial, then trying nerve blocks if we saw any behavior change to suggest a pain component. She said spine imaging can have false negatives because you can’t visualize the entire spinal process, just the upper part (I may be butchering this explanation), and also false positives, because not all spine fusions are symptomatic (and so her next step would be recommending a bute trial anyway if one were detected). Because the bute trial didn’t apparently change anything, I didn’t proceed with other diagnostics.
I just want to remind you to be careful getting on this horse for your next few rides. He could have had some skeletons pulled out of the closet and exhibit dangerous behavior with you now.
I have ridden him several times since and overall he did not seem too worried, but he was reluctant to pick up the correct lead tracking one direction. He is fine picking up both leads now but a little sluggish in that direction, like the hand brake is on. I’m just guessing the lunging made him sore and he needs some rest, so we aren’t doing any circles that direction or all that much cantering.
Anyway, all told, thanks for the varied perspectives. It does seem really unethical to try to offload him onto anyone else. And as miserable, tense, and reactive as he CAN be, he hasn’t been that horse lately, and doesn’t get that way out of no where. I got a lot of helpful input in the previous thread and felt I was applying it by getting in touch with someone who could work with him on trailering, it just snowballed into something more than that and we never ended up getting to the trailering part. I should have listened to the more conservative advice to give him the winter off.
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