Xenophon Society formed to uphold classical principals

[slc2]

i’m not all that sure they mean ‘whatever it takes to win’.

i think they mean that the horses are scoring higher in competition, so they win. i agree with yount and will emphasize that i don’t think you can really directly tie training methods to winning. horses win all the time that are trained unfairly, roughly, unkindly, whether that’s some subtle twisting of classical method or something that the public blatantly doesn’t like.

a judge cannot judge the training method. he can judge what he sees in the ring.

and i think if i told you all a horse was rollkur trained, and you watched the video, you’d say it sucked. and that if i took the SAME video and told you the horse was classically trained, you’d love it, and have explanations for minimizing or ignoring any faults you saw. but you wouldn’t see faults, because you were told the horse was classically trained. in fact, you all do that all the time here - your eye is biased. very. any horse you think is ‘classically trained’ is perfect, and faults are ignored. with the rollkur horses, you’re not seeing the faults that are there, and are making up other ones to fit your expectations.

i don’t believe witthages or anyone else at the top believes ‘whatever it takes to win’ in the way it is being suggested here. i think saying, ‘they score well’ isn’t the same as saying whatever it takes. i don’t think witthages believes it’s ok to abuse horses, but if you believe she thinks it’s ok to abuse horses, confront her personally - don’t keep gossiping about her here.

but i think where many at the top differ with the public is they don’t think rollkur - until it gets very extreme, like cobygate, really is abusive, i’m not even sure they feel cobygate was abusive, so much as just stupid and irresponsible. i don’t think they believe it causes pain ro shuts off the horse’s breathing. i think if they thought it was a problem they would have banned it. i don’t think they feel it is abusive at all, until it goes to cobygate like extremes.

[egontoast]

The best piaffe (“sitting” and even tempo) and transitions at Devon nights were those of Ashley Holzer and Pop Art.

She trains with Anky.

[Rusty_Stirrup]

Most professionals and ribbon riders ARE going to do whatever it takes to win. Several years ago I remember threads on this very bb stating that there was no such thing as competitive and classical dressage. I doubt many will still make that statement.

[ideayoda]

“a judge cannot judge the training method. he can judge what he sees in the ring.”

Of course the judge judges the training method, those guidelines are what the FEI rules outline clearly as the touchstones of correct training. Those who do turn a blind eye to the over tempo/tense/impure gaits/lack of lateral flexability/lack of lowering of the croup in piaffe/etc ignore the rules in favor of submission (as they are told to do because then even the uneducated can guess who makes 15 steps/ertc).

[grayarabpony]

The whole conflict comes from what is judged as “great gaits”. A lot of what many people call wonderful movement I see as throwing forelegs around and not enough from behind (especially evident in passage and extensions), or brilliance being confused with tension. I’d never thought I’d see dressage as being described as scary like downhill skiing though – a young horse in training, sure, a horse in competition – sounds like he’s not ready to be there.

:rolleyes:

[snoopy]

[QUOTE=egontoast;2719877]
She trains with Anky.:)[/QUOTE]

I know she USED too…but I do not believe so any more…

[mbm]

[QUOTE=Sabine;2717275]
this organization is another form of getting the masses to subscribe and it is teaching a mantra…it’s like a religion. After spending a life time in dressage I don’t believe in dogma and rigid rules. I believe in customized training for the individual horse- because the chance of it being cast away as ‘not- usable for dressage’ is just as high as the chance of it making it in ‘your Xenophon world’.
What I am really saying is this: try and distinguish between what is real training and an economic venture. This is the latter- it benefits a few peeps and it’s meant to confirm that 'their ’ take on dressage training was correct- and that was just their opinion…while they cast away just as many horses as not trainable as the other camp did…

think about it!! :)[/QUOTE]

huh? by its nature Dressage is a set of theories that set about to improve on the nature of the horse.

so yes, in that respect - it is a set theory… and it does work for all horses… because it is based on the nature of the horse. why would you want to ridicule the proliferation of correct theory? ???

also, i dont get this whole thing about having to modify dressage theory for the special horses. this is just crap.

the more i learn the more i understand this.

and Sabine - you know as well as i do that “popular” dressage theory is not really the same as traditional dressage theory…

i think that anything that helps to educate the masses on correct theory is a good thing. and i doubt that the principles of this org are making any $$ off of this… it costs too much to do events like they are doing.

and really - even if they were to make some $$ - who cares? why does doing good = being poor?
and no matter how much some of us would like it otherwise - everything around us can be described by a set of theories… which i guess sabine could say is dogma

[slc2]

well she trained a lot with her

no, actually paula, you are NOT allowed to ‘judge the training’. you are ONLY allowed to judge what you see in the ring. you cannot say, ‘this person trains with so and so so i am automatically going to mark her down’, or ‘i saw this person training in a way i don’t like so i am automatically going to mark her down’.

no, one can’t do that. it is unethical. it is against the rules. it is morally wrong. it is dishonest. one can only judge what one sees in the ring, that is the judge’s charter, and one can’t make up things one doesn’t actually see, to mark down just to cover up that one is ‘judging the training’.

yes, if a horse is going too fast, or not tracking up, a judge can mark it down. but to make up stuff or exaggerate what one sees, or to ascribe every single fault to one part of the training to prove a point - no.

[rebecca_yount]

I don’t think Terri will mind. Here’s a link to one of the pages in her photo gallery–one of the images is Pop Art in piaffe. Gorgeous.

http://www.terrimiller.com/gallery/gallery.php?galleryid=1093&tnpage=8

[Sabine]

[QUOTE=mbm;2720371]
huh? by its nature Dressage is a set of theories that set about to improve on the nature of the horse.

so yes, in that respect - it is a set theory… and it does work for all horses… because it is based on the nature of the horse. why would you want to ridicule the proliferation of correct theory? ???

also, i dont get this whole thing about having to modify dressage theory for the special horses. this is just crap.

the more i learn the more i understand this.

and Sabine - you know as well as i do that “popular” dressage theory is not really the same as traditional dressage theory…

i think that anything that helps to educate the masses on correct theory is a good thing. and i doubt that the principles of this org are making any $$ off of this… it costs too much to do events like they are doing.

and really - even if they were to make some $$ - who cares? why does doing good = being poor?
and no matter how much some of us would like it otherwise - everything around us can be described by a set of theories… which i guess sabine could say is dogma :)[/QUOTE]

MBM- you’re right- it’s meant for the masses…as such I suppose it can do a service…

[sm1]

Regarding ideayoda’s and slc2’s dialogue, this reminds me of Kurt Albrecht von Ziegner. To paraphrase his writings:

• What is the point of the dressage training? Movements are only a means to an end in the continual strive toward harmony between horse and rider. Emphasis should be on tempo, balance and expression - all elements that are only to be achieved through submission, contact, straightness and impulsion.

• Meanwhile, in a test, the completion of the movements (technical) are marked higher than the fundamental elements of dressage.

So, I think ideayoda and slc2 both have a point. The FEI pledged to uphold the purity of the principles dressage in it’s international competitions (article 417 or 419, do I need to find it again and post it) which it clearly is not doing.

Anyway, von Ziegener’s article that appeared in St Georg was translated here http://horsesforlife.com/TakingResponsibilityVonZiegener

[NOMIOMI1]

.

Cant you just ride and not have to classify it?

[mbm]

[QUOTE=slc2;2720385]

no, actually paula, you are NOT allowed to ‘judge the training’. [/QUOTE]

errr… i think that what a judge does do is judge the training… what else are they judging??? the grooming?

[Sabine]

[QUOTE=mbm;2721135]
errr… i think that what a judge does do is judge the training… what else are they judging??? the grooming? ;)[/QUOTE]

The judge HAS to judge what he sees at the time the test is presented. He can NOT judge the warmup, the cooldown, the grooming or the color of the horse. This is irrelevant.
If- as a consequence of the training a part of the test is presented poorly or incorrectly then the judge has to judge WHAT HE SEES!!

Since the result of proper training is a clean test- in a way the judge will judge the training- the submission- the expressiveness and the suppleness of the horse while carrying out the exercises- however how that rider obtained that submission/suppleness/expressiveness during the training sessions will not be known to the judge per se- there is no sign on the back of the rider saying (this horse was trained using classical methods and never wore a draw rein in his life)…

[slc2]

exactly. the judge can not make suppositions or hold any prejudices about whether he likes the rider or their trainer or the methods used to train the horse, this is what i mean by ‘judging the training’, you cannot. you judge the test. the second that horse walks into the ring, he is on a level playing field with all other competitors and riders. regardless of what you have read in a horse magazine, or seen them do before.

a trainer cannot say, i saw them warming up in a way i don’t like - the warmup is not judged. that is the rules. judging does not mean making up your own rules, based on your opinions or feelings about whether so and so is a drunk, or a bad trainer, or a person who doesn’t vacuum their house enough. or anything else.

if someone comes into the ring and fulfills the requirements, they get a score that reflects that. that’s it.

of course, the test is affected by how the horse is trained. duh. but the judge cannot judge that, he cannot make any suppositions or hold any biases or prejudices, he judges the test and the test only.

[sm1]

Irrelevant, draw reins and rollkur are not addressing the point that was made:

[QUOTE=ideayoda;2719982]
"Of course the judge judges the training method, those guidelines are what the FEI rules outline clearly as the touchstones of correct training. Those who do turn a blind eye to the over tempo/tense/impure gaits/lack of lateral flexability/lack of lowering of the croup in piaffe/etc ignore the rules…[/QUOTE]

Of course the judges can’t mark down for rollkur, why would they even try to find a method to do so? The FEI reviewed it and allows it… that was not the point being made.

[Maren]

“but maybe the really great gaits weren’t there- or maybe the really great gaits didn’t come out because of the training?? who knows??”

So what, we’re back to judging gaits? That is exactly where the cat bites its tail, sort of.

Anyway, I do appreciate your input, Sabine, especially BECAUSE you have a different background and can apply it (read: over the fenceline - good!). I just had to smile to myself about that other comment here saying “so long as horses don’t complain”…who is to judge that? Who knows when a horse is complaining?? Like us, they’re all indivduals. Like us, they voice their “concerns” in different ways. Is Gribaldi a classic example of Rollkur gone bad over time? Who knows? but it does come to mind…

Have to go back to my real job now, but you guys keep writing. Interesting reading!

[Hony]

Sabine - that’s exactly what I thought when I saw it. It’s a money grab like all the other horse whisperers.
I took a little time to read Xenophon and found that there was nothing that isn’t commonly being practiced today in many, many stables.
Did everyone read the section where he writes about bitting. The description of bits that were used is frightening. I am certain that it would easy to use a loose rein, infact necessary when there are spikes on the bit.
The principals that are outlined are clearly about creating a partnership between horse and rider. This is not a thing of the past in any way.
I hate money grabs and I don’t need to pay for someone to remind me that me and my horse are partners. Xenophon is rudimentary IMHO. Important, but rudimentary. I would hope that this is the case for many people. If not, then I guess you really do need the club to remind you that you are working WITH your horse.

[Sabine]

[QUOTE=Hony;2721636]
Sabine - that’s exactly what I thought when I saw it. It’s a money grab like all the other horse whisperers.
I took a little time to read Xenophon and found that there was nothing that isn’t commonly being practiced today in many, many stables.
Did everyone read the section where he writes about bitting. The description of bits that were used is frightening. I am certain that it would easy to use a loose rein, infact necessary when there are spikes on the bit.
The principals that are outlined are clearly about creating a partnership between horse and rider. This is not a thing of the past in any way.
I hate money grabs and I don’t need to pay for someone to remind me that me and my horse are partners. Xenophon is rudimentary IMHO. Important, but rudimentary. I would hope that this is the case for many people. If not, then I guess you really do need the club to remind you that you are working WITH your horse.[/QUOTE]

thanks Hony- that works for me…but if MBM thinks her classical skills are better off by subscribing- then so be it… Whatever floats your boat- in my world there are a few more tools and methods used than what is descibed here-…

[Sabine]

[QUOTE=Maren;2721437]
“but maybe the really great gaits weren’t there- or maybe the really great gaits didn’t come out because of the training?? who knows??”

So what, we’re back to judging gaits? That is exactly where the cat bites its tail, sort of.

Anyway, I do appreciate your input, Sabine, especially BECAUSE you have a different background and can apply it (read: over the fenceline - good!). I just had to smile to myself about that other comment here saying “so long as horses don’t complain”…who is to judge that? Who knows when a horse is complaining?? Like us, they’re all indivduals. Like us, they voice their “concerns” in different ways. Is Gribaldi a classic example of Rollkur gone bad over time? Who knows? but it does come to mind…

Have to go back to my real job now, but you guys keep writing. Interesting reading![/QUOTE]

Thanks Maren- and good point about the complaining. I would like to address that first.
I think ‘complaining’ in my world means that some part of the very close relationship I have with my horse is not quite right- it could be physical, behavior, eating, physical- anything really- usually my gut rings the bell and I know that something is not quite right. I do acknowledge that pushing a horse to a higher level of performance takes some work and some temporary discomfort. The key is ‘temporary’. Usually the worst signs in my mind are having to do with their gut (physical-colic) and behavior changes. This to me is always a sign of too much stress and going down a road that possibly can be taken differently- I review, assess and make changes then. But I also do want to point out that temporary discomfort is normal and just like athletes that work out hard- horses go thru that and with proper icing/care recover promptly and without scars- just to show stronger and happier.
I don’t like what happened to Gribaldi at all…

I am not judging gaits- but the flexibility and ease with which a upper level horse shows its original gaits- the ones he had way back when he was 3. I think it’s back to total gymnasticizing and loosening and more loosening and soft collection and loosening- that back and forth- that’s the only thing that produces the real gaits. Did you see Isi ride at Europeans- Satchmo in the GPS? Did you see the enormous expressiveness she showed there?
The Piaffe was not good but the rest was killer good, fluid and just effortless. I think that is a great example of what I am talking about. And yes- she rides very deep…