You know the horse market is crazy when

[beowulf]

Oh no, I definitely was not saying a proven H/J horse should be $10k. I was speaking of my area/discipline in particular (eventing), although I could have made that clearer in my post and I apologize.

I’m in Area I (eventing). Here a BN/N horse with a solid record is around 10k. If it’s a TB, forget it selling quickly and take 5k off of whatever the listing price is. My kvetch was that the less proven animal is going for more (sometimes double) simply because of the Import Price Tag. IMHO the price tags should be flipped – the proven one should command more money.

[Horselove5]

@beowulf

It’s like having “import” or “IRE” next to the name is an automatic +$10k on their price tag in the US.

I don’t know specifically about IRE but that’s roughly how much it costs to import from continental Europe… Add the risks of injury/illness/stress from the trip plus insurance, hauling & unexpected costs in the US & it all adds up. Plus you don’t don’t do price dumping on the local market… It’s a major upfront investment in time, money and nerves, and it’s risky!
That said, I respect all of you who invest (money and effort) in OTTBs here to retrain them. Your work and the idea to give them 2nd chance is awesome.

[beowulf]

@Horselove5

I don’t know specifically about IRE but that’s roughly how much it costs to import from continental Europe… Add the risks of injury/illness/stress from the trip plus insurance, hauling & unexpected costs in the US & it all adds up. Plus you don’t don’t do price dumping on the local market… It’s a major upfront investment in time, money and nerves, and it’s risky!

I know how much importing costs. However, a horse is not automatically better quality than its state-side contemporary simply because it was imported – despite what the market thinks to the contrary.

That was my point.

[Horselove5]

@TheDBYC

A lot of good dressage horses I know have no clue that they CAN jump & need a lot of skilled help figuring out how to do it.

What I’ve heard is that a highly trained dressage horse would simply not take the initiative to “pull” towards the fence like a jumper would do, especially when it gets above 1.20m. This transition could probably work in the lowest of classes, thought in general even a cow can jump these heights…

P. S Your whole post couldn’t be said better.

[outside_leg]

@beowulf

I know how much importing costs. However, a horse is not automatically better quality than its state-side contemporary simply because it was imported – despite what the market thinks to the contrary.

I’ve actually found that my money tends to go further in Europe than stateside (i.e. people ask a lot more for a horse that’s here than one overseas). That’s why I imported. Nothing against US-breds, but it costs a lot more to produce a foal in the states than it does in Europe.

Once the horse is here and doing the job, I haven’t seen a ton of price differences between US-bred horses and imports doing the same job. Unless we’re talking about TBs, in which case, yes, they don’t fetch the same prices as the WBs doing the same job and they’re harder to move.

[Horselove5]

@beowulf

a horse is not automatically better quality than its state-side contemporary simply because it was imported

I didn’t mean the intrinsic quality, I simply meant that such horse will always come with +10k price to the US market. And of course you won’t ask the price you paid in Europe but consult the local market. Otherwise, you’re dumping and it’s unfair to the local breeders

[173north]

@beowulf

Meanwhile I see a TB or WBx with a performance record barely scratching a 10k sale price after being on the market for months.

Wow, this is wild to me. I’m seeing freshly restarted OTTBs for $10k or close to it. I just saw a super nice 15.3hh OTTB mare, 3’3 eventer/jumper packer type, good age, for just under $20k in the Midwest and I thought that was a steal.

[Gardenhorse]

@beowulf

Oh no, I definitely was not saying a proven H/J horse should be $10k. I was speaking of my area/discipline in particular (eventing), although I could have made that clearer in my post and I apologize.

I’m in Area I (eventing). Here a BN/N horse with a solid record is around 10k. If it’s a TB, forget it selling quickly and take 5k off of whatever the listing price is. My kvetch was that the less proven animal is going for more (sometimes double) simply because of the Import Price Tag. IMHO the price tags should be flipped – the proven one should command more money.

At least in Area II, horses with a solid BN/N record are going for much more than $10k these days, no matter the breed. Nice-moving, fresh off the track horses are selling for over $5k.

[vxf111]

We might have one here in NJ that suits what you’re looking for. It’s not going to win the dressage. But it loves to jump/cross country and it has the buttons. It’s a steal for what it is, IMHO, given the market. It is very much a plain brown wrapper and hasn’t really been marketed yet and I think that’s the only reason it’s still available.

[beowulf]

I see many TBs listed fresh off the track for $10k. Not many are bought for that, though. Most sell within the $2k-5k ball park. This is about normal for TBs, and has been for several years.

There are a few flippers that buy fresh and do sell for north of $5k-$10k. This is not the industry norm and the average rider couldn’t sell that same horse out of their own barn for that price.

Case in point about how weird the eventing market is right now… There’s a really nice Intermediate horse with a proven record at the level and the scope for more, that has been sitting on the market for weeks near me. They are asking $15k, but not much interest in the comments.

The next ad down is an average moving, cobbish looking Irish horse “event prospect” with no eventing record but it’s Imported!! $15k with tons of interest. It’s also grey, so…

Over the winter I saw a BN/N packer (TB) listed for months at $15k and didn’t get any interest until they dropped to below $10k.

I agree these horses should be worth more. My experience, however, says that you’ll have a hard time selling your reasonably average BN/N horse for much more.

[vxf111]

I don’t know what prices are like for eventers but inventory seems low for them too. I know a lot of people who are struggling just to find eventing horses to look at that haven’t sold before they get there!

[vxf111]

You’ve got to remember that, for the most part, in the US we’re not talking about meter 2 and up and we’re not talking about 4th level.

Most amateurs in the US are riding at about a training/first level and jumping 3’ or lower. Those are the sorts of horses that can transition careers pretty readily. An eventing horse that has done novice but likes to go slow can make up to be a good 3’ local horse. We’re not talking Rox Dene here-- but most US amateurs aren’t swimming in that pool anyway. A dressage horse that has all the buttons but just isn’t a nice enough mover to win in straight dressage can make a great 2’6 child/adult hunter. A lot of these older horses transitioning either just sat for one reason or another or were low level amateur type horses in their initial career. Those types readily transition.

I totally agree that a GP jumper is unlikely to make a GP dressage horse at age 16 but a majority of horses for sale aren’t GP anything and a majority of riders don’t need (and couldn’t ride) a GP anything.

Your general low level, amateur friendly horse in discipline A often is able to make the switch to a low level amateur job in discipline B with a little work/effort. Easily a quarter of the horses on the local hunter circuit in my area started as dressage horses/eventers/western pleasure/raced/something else. Are they going to win at Devon? Absolutely not. But neither would a majority of purpose bred hunters that spent their whole career in that discipline who are showing on that type of local circuit.

[beowulf]

It is genuinely low for scopey, forgiving, dressage-competitive, ready to move up horses.

It seems you either get the talent to move up for more but not a forgiving ride, or you get a forgiving ride with no talent for much more than BN, or, you get the forgiving & scopey, with no real competitive dressage scores.

We have a lot of amateurs who just want a stress free ride on a packer that can turn in a good dressage score. That’s where the real shortage is and why so many TBs that are listed as BN safe are sitting on the market forever.

[173north]

@beowulf

I see many TBs listed fresh off the track for $10k. Not many are bought for that, though. Most sell within the $2k-5k ball park. This is about normal for TBs, and has been for several years.

There are a few flippers that buy fresh and do sell for north of $5k-$10k. This is not the industry norm and the average rider couldn’t sell that same horse out of their own barn for that price.

Ah, agree with you on both of these points, I shouldn’t have used the words “freshly restarted.” I was thinking more of the “year off the track, been to a few shows” type, which I’m generally seeing in the low fives. The upper-level warmbloods do seem to be hitting mid-fives… a going Intermediate horse at $15k with no interest is wild to me.

[fordtraktor]

Yeah, for $15k I would think it must have some serious soundness or rideability issue. Can’t get a BN packer here for $15k. It is a suspicious price. Maybe they should ask $35k, I bet they would get more interest! BTDT.

[TheDBYC]

@Horselove5

What I’ve heard is that a highly trained dressage horse would simply not take the initiative to “pull” towards the fence like a jumper would do, especially when it gets above 1.20m. This transition could probably work in the lowest of classes, thought in general even a cow can jump these heights…

I’ll buy that. Jimmy Woford once opined that he felt that too many modern eventers are over-managing the ride & the horses they’re bringing along display a skill deficit for making the independent executive decisions previous generations of upper level jumper/x-country horses did.

I get the idea of why the hypothetical 15yo dressage horse switching careers seems like the ideal candidate for the novice, 40+ adult amateur to tool around the low hunters/mini jumpers, then. After all horse, a horse that really takes you to the fences jumper style is not what most of them need. The issue that I’ve observed is that our 15yo 4th level dressage horse is more likely to be the opposite instead of the neutral. They tend to need a lot of rider support and suck back and/or stop if the ride into the fences isn’t accurate. That’s not most of the 40+ novice adult amateurs I know.

Yeah, yeah, I know. A trainer can usually smooth it out. But what’s the point? Why spend all that time and money to come out on the other side with a green hunter that’s pushing 20? Just buy a 15yo hunter that needs a step down. Most long time dressage horses never end up looking suitably huntery, either. And our area is so competitive that I could probably take Valegro into the hack at a local schooling show & not pin.

Again, my opinion is an outlier for an Americans judging from other comments I’m seeing up thread.

[Gardenhorse]

I’m not actively looking, but just from looking at the FB posts and chatting with a few people who are looking right now, inventory is low and prices are high for eventers also. Perhaps the horses I’m seeing advertised aren’t actually selling at their listed prices, but given that most of them are off the market within 2 weeks, I doubt the sellers are taking huge discounts.

[Gardenhorse]

What The Heck Is Going On In The Horse Market Right Now?

[Horselove5]

She makes a comparison with her last horse shopping **20 years ** ago when a 2w trial was a norm lol. I know about 4 horses recently on a trial period - one came back sore, another - with horribly neglected hooves, another - fat and totally out of shape and the last one - with half of his tail gone… Thanks but no thanks!
On the bright side, just saw an add about a young registered WB mare, healthy, sane and Xrayed, shown in 1st level dressage (schooling 3rd), jumped in 2’6 H and beginners J for just 50k…

[AmmyHunter]

@Horselove5

I know about 4 horses recently on a trial period - one came back sore, another - with horribly neglected hooves, another - fat and totally out of shape and the last one - with half of his tail gone… Thanks but no thanks!

If the horses were gone long enough for the hooves to look horribly neglected or for the horse to get fat and out of shape, that was a lease not a trial. Trials do still occur regularly, some paid some unpaid, and in my experience it is typically a few days and scheduled around a confirmed PPE appointment so that people can use their home vet, and only when trainers are involved, particularly trainers who know or know of each other. But no doubt there is risk for the sellers, and not everyone is willing to do it, and there should be a written trial agreement and insurance involved.