Young eventing prospect -- what is the most important trait?

[Lord_Helpus]

I have a decent budget and am looking for a prospect (probably a 3 year old, or a 4 year old that got a late start) that has the attributes to go far. Of course, a horse has to do it to prove it, but I need to prioritize the importance of traits. I certainly expect any serious prospect to be interested, interactive and inquisitive. And have conformation that will not prevent him/her from physically moving up the levels (good legs, balanced body and neck)

Beyond that:

I figure that an incredible jump should be the priority. If I can only see a video of a horse lunging and free jumping — I have to take some things on faith (like the ability to collect, bravery and the desire to jump clean).

My thinking is that, as long as the horse is naturally balanced, dressage can be taught, but the other 2 phases involve jumping. So a big jump with a powerful hind end that really flips up over the jump is all important in a horse who might go FEI one day.

Am I thinking along the right lines?

[Trumpet_Peformance_H]

Yes those are very good things to look for but one thing to add is the brain. A horse with the right talent and body can be wrong in the brain for what you need.

[Manni01]

http://www.elmar-lesch.de/auktion-startseite-engl.html

I am not in any way connected to Elmar Lesch, but he does sell a lot of nice young horses. My nephew bought one of his best horses at his auction. If you are looking for a young horse, he is a good source. I think the next collection for the auction will be presented in October

[tuppysmom]

Rideability is number one for us. We have had horses with incredible talent for jumping and running, but they were so tense and volitol as to make them unusable for our sports.
I have been to Elmar’s farm when he had the auction horses there to be tried. It was very interesting to be able to try one after the other. He is quite good at helping a rider sort through the horses for a good fit.
I think he has two auctions per year.

[Highflyer]

Gallop. In fact, IMO the way the horse covers ground is almost more telling than the jump, especially if you’re looking at non TBs that are bred to jump.

[goodmorning]

Yes, gallop. Tiana Coudrays horse that won the Burghley YEH last year is incredible. Crystal Cavalier. The mare is brave, can jump, but what’s more fantastic is her gallop.

Though jump is important, you actually have to be careful here. I know you volunteer a bit, so watch some of the spread jumps. Some of the best ‘jumpers’ that may make good 1.3/1.4m horses are frightening over the spreads. Or even some of the skinnies as the rise in the back. These jumpers trajectories are not quite right. A true hind-end flip puts the front end down too early. Or they have too much hang time. When they get tired most seem to revert to their fundamental jumping style. The worst falls I’ve witnessed are on horses that have plenty of jump for the height at I/A but are lacking the power in the gallop and the jump. I’m sure there are great gallopers that are wretched jumpers, but that classic gallop length tends to mean they can breeze across a giant table.

As a rider I find a truly back cracking hind-end flipping jump is a nightmare coming into a combination XC, but, a professional may find it less alarming. Especially if it’s a downhill coffin combination. :lol:

Footwork is good to evaluate. How they handle poles & cavaletti. Also, I want it to have a natural instinct to drop its head over a drop. So many horses don’t do this. It’s an interesting thing to observe. And anyone can lunge a horse over a drop.

I’m sure I’m forgetting lots but those are some starters.

[JER]

A forward jump. Eventers don’t have to scale great heights, but they have to do it going forward. A big jump that hangs in the air or that loses momentum is not what you want in eventing.

A resilient attitude toward work. Event horses need to be able to put mistakes behind them, self-correct and move on. A horse that’s super careful and gets rattled by either his own or his rider’s imperfections will probably not be happy in eventing.

A good eye for a jump. You can see this in a young horse in a round pen with small jumps. Watch how they figure it out. If they launch from anywhere, that’s not a good sign. You want to see an awareness of their own legs and also a natural sense of comfort in the air.

[oldbutnotdead]

Great thread!

[WNT]

I think this falls in with forward and resilient, but boldness is very important. Someone I know has a lovely horse who has broken her heart more than once when he was going brilliantly, only to have him shut down at a question he didn’t like (i.e. water). He’s got plenty of experience, he’d just rather not thank-you-very-much.

A natural curiousity and tendency to investigate a challenge rather than avoid it would be something to look for in a youngster.

[Lord_Helpus]

I am so glad I started this thread! Every post has given me new information that I had not thought of.

I will now request a video showing, in addition to a high oxer to show scope (that is my jumper brain talking) the young horse jump a low but very wide oxer to see how it stretches across a jump. Do you all think that will help to give me an insight to its future ability to jump tables, etc?

As far as its gallop (an excellent point) , how does one (me) evaluate a gallop of an unbroken 3 year old in a ring? I have noticed that many top eventers have a high, rolling way of going x/c. Is that an important part of a “good gallop”?

I can see how far out of my skill set I am… My thought about getting a really good jumper included a back up plan of having a horse who could do the 1.20m jumpers (adult and childrens jumpers) if it was not brave enough to be an eventer. But I now see how detrimental a back flipping jumper would be.

Oh MY! I do have to switch my eye to a whole new set of criteria.

When asking for a video (at liberty in a ring) what would help you evaluate a 3 year old?

What about asking for the sellers to put a tarp down to see how a young horse reacts to it? Getting decent videos at all is like pulling teeth.

[Trumpet_Peformance_H]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8814380]
As far as its gallop (an excellent point) , how does one (me) evaluate a gallop of an unbroken 3 year old in a ring? I have noticed that many top eventers have a high, rolling way of going x/c. Is that an important part of a “good gallop”?[/QUOTE]

I have learned a decent indicator for a good gallop is a long, ground covering, powerful natural walk can mean a good gallop

[Libby2563]

This is really interesting! To further educate us all, can people point to videos of young horses and explain what they see that is positive or negative? I’m willing to post some of my 3-year-old galloping and free jumping.

[Pansonfyre]

I recently bought my 5th horse. After horse-buying/owning/riding over the last 30 years, I knew what criteria I wanted in this last horse. After buying 3-4 yr olds previously (some started - some not), I wanted a 5 or 6 year old that had solid basics and light mileage.

Unless you’re a very insightful and experienced horse person/trainer, I think it’s very difficult to gauge all the things you talked about. Esp. the great brain, trainability and bravery part. The good gaits, jumping form and gallop are external and you can see that. But you can’t feel the heart and the try part. You got to ride that to feel it

Just my opinion…

[frugalannie]

I’d watch their attitude about jumping, even free jumping. Ears up, looking for the fence or being chased to it?

And I agree that this is a terrific thread whether you’re in the market for an unbacked youngster or a more established horse.

[beowulf]

i don’t necessarily agree with the having to be curious and inquisitive; i think there are many horses that may not be your best pal that can make incredible partners. it can be very tricky to gauge the brain of a young horse; i’ve had several that as youngsters were really not incredibly bold or confident in themselves, but after a few years of good solid basics/foundations became incredibly brave XC.

i look for the gallop; part of that talent can almost always be seen at the walk. you want full use of the body, with a coiling overtrack. sometimes it is hard to look past stiffness or soreness (especially if they are on the track) but you should be able to see a full range of their pelvis and hips being used. ‘walk like a jungle-cat’ is a good idea of what to look for.

the brain is very important, but each brain is different. i prefer careful over too bold or too nosy in a very young horse. “carefully forward” is the type of brain i look for. to an extent i think you can train bravery if you carefully lay down the foundation in which a horse always succeeds in what you ask. i prefer a big degree of autonomy in my horses (ties into careful) as i think that they tend to gravitate towards being selective in their distances and rarely reckless, which can be a good thing XC. IMHO i’d rather have a horse that recognizes a spot may be terribly impossible over a horse that throws his heart over the fence and hurts himself/damages his confidence after. of course, YMMV.

someone up thread asked for a video of a walk that suggests a good gallop. i will supply a video of a project i picked up a few years ago; he was a little older than my preferred age (i prefer to get them 2-3 y/o) but there was something about him i really liked. i have taken it slow with him as he has some mental baggage from the track, but i have been told by several UL riders (and agree) that he has some serious UL potential. unfortunately for him, i plan to keep him so it is unlikely he would ever do anything above a 2*. he has an incredible canter and an effortless, efficient gallop - it is very easy for him to simply ‘open’ that stride and devour ground. his track video shows decent mover, but he is an incredible mover now and i have been very pleasantly surprised by the quality of his trot - most people think he is a warmblood.

here is the page & video of him on the track:
http://fingerlakesfinesttbs.com/midnight-tucker-5-year-old-16-3-h-dark-bay-gelding/

[NMK]

A couple of thoughts: I would pay attention to pedigree. If you take a look at a lot of the good horses eventing now, regardless of where they came from, a lot of them were bred for the sport. Lucky for us more folks are purposely breeding nice horses for the sport here in the USA. This purpose bred USA horse would be my first choice when looking.

Second to that is a horse that can be both large and small–a ground covering gallop but that ability to switch to a coffin type canter in a moment. Watch a young horse in a field with a hill and you’ll know what I mean. The jump chute is also quite a telling tool if you find a ground person that really knows how to do it right.

Equally as important is the ability of a horse to take some pressure without a combative attitude.

And finally, a decent mover with correct conformation so you are not limited in progressing forward.

[merrygoround]

The right brain! A horse can have all sorts of ability but if he won’t go forward over, under or through everything he is worthless as an eventer.

[vineyridge]

Presenting a horse to water even if it’s just a big puddle and to a natural ditch on the lead or long lines (or if rideable, under saddle) can tell you a great deal by how the horse responds. Also, if it is living in a herd, taking it away from the herd and presenting it with a problem can tell you a great deal about the horse’s brain. You want a horse who is thinking and problem solving all the time and willing to try new things.

Getting the horse out and walking around in places with natural features can be quite informative.

[devvie]

[QUOTE=NMK;8814609]
A couple of thoughts: I would pay attention to pedigree.[/QUOTE]

Yes.

[fordtraktor]

I wouldn’t judge horses too much by how they react to water the first time. The first time my OTTB went in the water it took 45 minutes of serious persuasion and I had extremely expert help from one of the best instructors in the country. He’s never looked at it twice again, he just trots or canters right in. He also would take a peek at totally new jumps the first time, then be gung ho after that. No eventing trainer I have ridden with thought that was a big deal at all. Just green behavior and it goes away as the horse builds confidence. Does the horse figure stuff out and then treat it like it’s nothing? that’s fine even if the first approach was a bit rocky.

so…one trait I like is a horse that learns quickly! I also like one who learns from his mistakes. Young horses are going to make mistakes, they need to attempt to process how not to do it again.

I also think a hanging, not forward jump can be fixed in many horses. some horses jump up and just need to be taught to jump across. Once you do, they are fine. Others will still jump up at times and the rider needs to keep leg on to make sure the jump across memo is still remembered.

I hate to be practical but if you want to win at the upper levels, I would get something that’s a decent enough mover to score well in dressage. I know everyone hates that suggestion and of course it needs to gallop too, but if you have a decent amount of money to spend like you say, you ought to be able to buy a young horse that can gallop, has good scope and has pretty gaits. There are some lovely options out there.