Young eventing prospect -- what is the most important trait?

re: water & ditches

i don’t put too much weight/stock into how they handle water or ditches for the first time. rather, i’m more interested/concerned with how they handle it on the second approach – IMHO it is much more important to me that they recognize that it’s the same question and process that it is NBD over it is whether or not they go over/through it the first time without any hitch. the second time is much more important to me than the first.

i have one green horse that when water was first introduced, he needed a moment to look at it or see that it is okay. sometimes that means we stand there for a second while he studies it; but once that moment is over he does not need reassurance and the second approach is always an ‘okay, i’ll try it!’. he has gotten to the point where XC water crossings he doesn’t think twice about anymore – however, a murky/shady/deep muddy spot on the trail he does still sometimes balk at until he gets a second to look at it. i think he recognizes the difference between a water jump/complex and a mud hole on the trail, and maybe has realized water jumps are always consistent footing while mud holes are questionable. to me that is much more valuable, as it shows he is capable of thinking for himself and figuring something out.

As you all have posted, I have more questions :slight_smile:

It is very hard to see things in a ring on a video, like bravery, a good gallop and the ability to jump wide in addition to high.

Many times people have a very basic outdoor area, and if they have a jump to put up it is poles on oil drums. Not always — but often enough I find it hard to separate the environment from talent (or lack thereof). Horses being chased around with lunge whips and almost bolting over an X do not impress me. But if I am to find a diamond in the rough I need to see through the conditions and focus on the horse.

[I want to add that I know, and have been told, that I have a great eye for talent – but that is in disciplines I am familiar with. I need to translate my eye to the event world, and you have been very helpful.]

One video I saw was of a 5 -6 year old going beginner novice. He just cantered around and hopped over the little jumps. He did everything asked of him, but I did not see anything that indicated he would go past Training. I was sent the video by someone who thought the horse had great upper level potential. Was I looking at the wrong things?

What would you all expect to see in a beginner novice horse which would make you think “ah-HA! this horse has talent!”?

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8814764]

One video I saw was of a 5 -6 year old going beginner novice. He just cantered around and hopped over the little jumps. He did everything asked of him, but I did not see anything that indicated he would go past Training. I was sent the video by someone who thought the horse had great upper level potential. Was I looking at the wrong things?[/QUOTE]

do you have the video? inquiring minds. :wink:

i think it is easier to feel talent sometimes than to see it; however, when i watch a young horse jump i am looking for their reactions leading up and after the fence; i want to see them be careful but not cautious - how did they do on landing? if the rider didn’t stick well, did they get rattled? did they get braver as the course went on (as they should) or when they were presented with trying questions did their confidence wax or wane? if they missed a stride or took off long, did it unsettle them? or did they ‘Carry On’? as they continued jumping did their jumping style change? its okay if a greenbean starts out with his knees to his eyeballs over a fence, but as the course goes on i do look to see if he changes his style and settles into a rhythm.

a big giant jump is not always indicative of UL talent. a good horse has an ergonomic and efficient jump - green horses tend to jump bigger than necessary and as they get more confident/trained they tend to jump more efficiently in line with the height of the fence, but the scope should always be there.

I’m not talking about water per se, just how the horse processes a request to go through water the first time. I use that as an example because I introduced two young horses to a mud puddle on the lead. One looked at it, thought about it and then gingerly went through it the first time. Second time she just went right through it. Same thing with ditches. She looked at the ditch, processed it, went over it gingerly, but the second time, she just walked over it.

The other young horse of the same age (and same sire) looked at the puddle, danced around the edge three times, balked, and rolled his eyes. He looked as if he were contemplating going up. I finally got him to go through it, but the second time he did the same things. That horse still hates water of any kind.

Pretty much the same thing happened when I presented him to a ditch. His first response was a flat “NO.” But when I insisted, he jumped over it and hasn’t has a ditch problem since. He is fond of jumping.

[QUOTE=beowulf;8814775]
do you have the video? inquiring minds. :wink:

i think it is easier to feel talent sometimes than to see it; however, when i watch a young horse jump i am looking for their reactions leading up and after the fence; i want to see them be careful but not cautious - how did they do on landing? if the rider didn’t stick well, did they get rattled? did they get braver as the course went on (as they should) or when they were presented with trying questions did their confidence wax or wane? if they missed a stride or took off long, did it unsettle them? or did they ‘Carry On’? as they continued jumping did their jumping style change? its okay if a greenbean starts out with his knees to his eyeballs over a fence, but as the course goes on i do look to see if he changes his style and settles into a rhythm.

a big giant jump is not always indicative of UL talent. a good horse has an ergonomic and efficient jump - green horses tend to jump bigger than necessary and as they get more confident/trained they tend to jump more efficiently in line with the height of the fence, but the scope should always be there.[/QUOTE]

I thought briefly of adding a link to the video, but then realized that I did not have permission to post a video, especially on a thread that is focused on critiquing a horse. I can only imagine how upset I would be if I found video of a sale horse of mine showing up on a BB and being dissected by strangers. :smiley:

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8814894]
I thought briefly of adding a link to the video, but then realized that I did not have permission to post a video, especially on a thread that is focused on critiquing a horse. I can only imagine how upset I would be if I found video of a sale horse of mine showing up on a BB and being dissected by strangers. :D[/QUOTE]
it’s probably for the best not to post it publicly, i was under the impression it was a shared video.

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8814380]
What about asking for the sellers to put a tarp down to see how a young horse reacts to it? [/QUOTE]

One of my best-ever eventers (now 32, I’ve had him for 20+ years) has a meltdown if you wave a piece of paper at him.

On XC or in the jumping ring or out hunting, he was unstoppable. Safest jumper ever.

But if you’d presented him with a tarp as a youngster, you wouldn’t have to worry about buying him because he’d be in the next county already. :slight_smile:

Hahahahaha.

The first time I took one of my young mares to water, we had a 90 minute test of wills about whether or not she would go through it. She went on to become a very good Advanced eventer, although she was not always the easiest horse to work with as she had very strong opinions. But that’s a big part of what made her such a good horse on XC.

I wouldn’t worry about what the horse showed in a lower-level video – it’s good when they just canter around a course with no fireworks. Go see it and put it through an easy, basic gymnastic line so it feels confident, and then put the fences up gradually. Then you can get a better idea of whether it is going to jump big stuff easily. I don’t really care if it jumps HUGE over things – I just want to see if the ability to jump is there. Sometimes you can get them to put in a bit more effort without actually jumping huge fences by using a giant X (like top of the standards). It’s still not a huge fence in the middle but horses tend to jump it bigger.

What I want to see – that the shape of the jump is good and consistent, and that if the horse hits something as it raises (no problem, they have to learn how much effort to use) that he comes around and jumps it better the next time. Not that he stops and not that he hits it again.

I passed on an OTTB because he spooked at a brush on the floor in the aisle. He spooked on a pole on the ground. He was small. He ran Rolex. Twice. LAZ saw his potential when others did not. Purpose of story=find someone who can give you another opinion. “Upper level potential” is different for different people.

The requirements of our sport have changed quite a bit in the past 30 years, but I don’t think you can ever go wrong with a horse that can jump and gallop. You may not win against a fancier or better trained horse, but you will come home safe and sound.

While I used to rule out horses that were total spooks or total chickens, I have seen how the H/J crowd uses these traits to their advantage and can appreciate a horse with a little bit of those now. I see fewer of the surprise rider-frightener fences where a horse was expected to be super-bold; today horses need to be bold but rideable because of all the combinations.

My personal list goes like this:

  1. Good jump - enough scope and a knowledge of where their legs are.

  2. easy canter/gallop - for long-term soundness and for the stamina over the longer upper level XC courses

  3. trainable brain - I would have put this first, but if the horse can’t jump I wouldn’t buy it.

Depending on your budget, you may be able to get sellers to send you videos of all the things you’re looking at - my budget has almost always been a “go and see” because nobody was going to take the time to video their piece of charcoal that they were selling as a diamond in the rough.

Blugal, I plan to go and see the finalists, but first I need to identify them. So I need to evaluate and appreciate what I am seeing in videos.

A majestic tail, of course.

Stating the fairly obvious, but you can bet I’d be looking for a very good set of feet.

I forgot the obvious, as well:
“But probably, if I had to pick one thing that I had to hang my hat on, I would want the horse that I was going to buy to have a face that I would enjoy seeing poked over the stall webbing every morning, waiting for breakfast.”

Can be found on page 20, Training the Three-Day Event Horse and Rider, James C. Wofford.

At a clinic with him last fall, someone asked him what he’d look for in a young horse as a future 4* mount. He said, “If you spot a future 4* horse as a 3 or 4 year old, then give me a call.”

I just went young UL prospect shopping this past winter. I had this list of requirements:

Gelding, 4-5 years (but would consider 6 yr olds), 15.3 to 16.3 h, no previous soft tissue injuries, 8+ mover, uphill, minimum of 75% TB blood, ideally full TB. I also wanted but would compromise on no previous known injuries at all, under 20 races, bay (obviously this one was very shallow and would go out the window easily!).

My specific criteria for evaluating conformation included:

Sloped shoulder, neck tied in high, and a low stifle. Uphill topline. No long backs. Neck shouldn’t be too short. Pasterns not too long, not too short but juuuust right.

I was well prepared to sacrifice on somethings but not others. I knew I wanted a true UL prospect, and preferably something that could win at those levels. That meant movement in all three dressage gaits was a priority, although I made the walk/canter a bigger priority than the trot. Still I thought the trot needed to show promise…yes you can improve it, but a 3 might only improve to a 6 while a 6 can improve to a 9 trot.

I wasn’t too worried about the jump, honestly. Now part of this stems from not seeing a ton of free jump videos in the area of horses I was looking at (mostly OTTBs), which meant a lot of the jump videos were from horses being ridden under saddle, jumping maybe 2’ fences. I don’t expect a lot of horses to be too impressed with that height, nor need to try that hard. If they do…I worry they are either scoped out at low heights or possibly too spooky to handle the UL. I did want them to hint at the ability to jump well, so part of my method if I tried the horse was to have the seller jump a new or bigger fence to see if the horse snapped his forelegs a bit more, or cracked his back at all.

I wanted a bright but calm look in the eye, something that indicated intelligence but also a stability about them. Spookiness is fine but I didn’t want panic when introduced to something new.

What I ended up with was something with fewer compromises than I thought I would have to make. The TB gelding I bought fit all my required categories: fantastic movement in all three gaits (and unsurprisingly turned out to have a fantastic gallop although I couldn’t test it out in the indoor in the winter when I tried him). Level-headed intelligence that tends to progress through training slowly but surely. He hadn’t been jumping long and was too tall to take the 2’ fences seriously, but we tested him over a 2’6" Swedish oxer and he showed promise in his form. Obviously he was 100% TB, he hit all my conformation must-haves including being extremely uphill, and had no known previous injuries.

Places I compromised: The horse is 17.1, significantly taller than I preferred, but he’s narrow as a fish and most of that height is in his legs so he takes up my leg well. He’s 6, which I worried was too old. That has turned out ok because he’s so long and mentally immature so if I had bought him at 5 or 4 I don’t know how he’d remotely be ready any time soon. He raced 27 times, which actually I like now because he came out with no injuries and in great physical condition, so I’m pretty sure he’ll hold up well to UL eventing. His jump isn’t phenomenal yet but a huge portion of that seems to just be him sorting out his ridiculously long legs and it gets better every session.

So basically…you need a lot. And who knows if he will really ever pan out.

My strategy is similar to Divine Comedy. I go shopping off the track. Find a nice mover with upper level conformation: big long shoulder, uphill balance, leggy, well proportioned, strong hindquarter. Good feet and sound. Chances are pretty good it will have enough jump (from conformation) and gallop (duh, its a TB). Mentally, it can’t be a nutcase but sometimes track tension/high energy will mellow in a new career. As long as it came from a reasonable trainer, it probably has developed a good work ethic.

It’s a gamble with any nice young horse, purpose bred or not. Truly, you never know you have an advanced horse until he crosses his first set of blue finish flags.

Brain and eagerness to work with the rider. Horses that are always protecting themselves and very defensive are not going to get you far. Funny, I am going to look at puppies this week-end. I want a dog to hike and play at agility. There is one in the litter who is very independent, and I am not interested. I want a dog (or horse) that wants to work with me.

[QUOTE=Blugal;8815189]
I forgot the obvious, as well:
“But probably, if I had to pick one thing that I had to hang my hat on, I would want the horse that I was going to buy to have a face that I would enjoy seeing poked over the stall webbing every morning, waiting for breakfast.”

Can be found on page 20, Training the Three-Day Event Horse and Rider, James C. Wofford.

At a clinic with him last fall, someone asked him what he’d look for in a young horse as a future 4* mount. He said, “If you spot a future 4* horse as a 3 or 4 year old, then give me a call.”[/QUOTE]

I’m a strong believer that you can learn to love any horse’s face once it saves your butt on xc a few times.

[QUOTE=Highflyer;8815395]
I’m a strong believer that you can learn to love any horse’s face once it saves your butt on xc a few times.[/QUOTE]

I think he meant that too - it was about personality, not looks. If you read the chapter in his book, he goes on to say that if you don’t like the horse, you will never make excuses for it. Hard to explain but I think this is about empathy and about enjoyment too. In the end, we spend 95% or more of our time working with this horse at home and schooling, and hardly any at all in the competition ring. For the majority of people, enjoying the time with the horse is more important than the slightest glimmer of a possibility of bringing home a medal one day.

I don’t put too much stock in how they free jump except for maybe what their attitude is to free jumping. A horse that is jumping out of its skin to get up and over a fence and may seem a bit “allergic to wood” isn’t necessarily something I’m going to be clamoring to put on the trailer, as, sometimes, that kind of jump means they are too careful or spooky for the job, as others have stated. Also, particularly with young eventers, they may just not be all that impressed with something until further down the line, so if they’re just stepping over small fences, I’m not concerned.

I DO want to see a great canter/gallop and if they have a fabulous walk them they are almost guaranteed to have the canter to match. When I watch OTTB videos, I pay close attention to their walks when they are being jogged out. A good walk is kinda slinky and ground covering. My horse has a pretty great canter and a ground eating gallop…I liken his walk to a big cat…kinda rolling, ground covering, and quietly powerful.