Anybody know if T/Bs are officially measured. She has been reported 17.2hh and 183 cm on Wickipedia… 183cm is 18 hh…
Also, the reported weight does not make sense to me…it seems light. It would make sense on a 3yo though but not a 5yo.
I am really curious about how tall she REALLY IS and how she got that way and what effect this could have on the future of race horses. Are embryo transfers legal yet?
I think you need to remember that Wickipedia can be edited by almost anyone, and the info is often not correct.
Embryo transfers are not allowed when it comes to registering TB’s with the JC.
Zenyatta has been mentioned as being 17hh in most of the racing publications. I doubt she’s any over that. 18hh would put her in draft horse height terrotory.
Not sure what you saw for her weight, but again in the racing pubs I’ve read 1200lbs.
Thoroughbreds (the Jockey Club) do not allow ANY artificial means of reproduction. Stallion has to physically service the mare. No AI, no embryo transplants, etc, atleast if you plan to have your horse registered.
lists her height as 17.2 here
dont know how correct this is
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/zenyatta
yep, live cover only for TBs
I wonder why??? probably tradition?
I wouldn’t trust allbreedpedigree if they told me she was a mare (they’re worse than pedigreequery, which is limited to TBs and still overall pretty bad.)
But I have seen it given as 17.2 in other places and we had a thread here about it–the concensus seems to be she’s definitely over 17.
As for AI, I believe a stallion used for it also gets banned for a year or some such? And the reasoning is, I suspect, economic plus tradition. In any case, I’ve heard arguments AI would break up the “monopolies”…but in fact I think you’d end up with more or them. They’d have to drastically raise all the state-bred incentives or you’d just end up with everyone getting shipped semen from the big Kentucky stallions.
Yes
[QUOTE=danceronice;5282506]
I wouldn’t trust allbreedpedigree if they told me she was a mare (they’re worse than pedigreequery, which is limited to TBs and still overall pretty bad.)
But I have seen it given as 17.2 in other places and we had a thread here about it–the concensus seems to be she’s definitely over 17.
As for AI, I believe a stallion used for it also gets banned for a year or some such? And the reasoning is, I suspect, economic plus tradition. In any case, I’ve heard arguments AI would break up the “monopolies”…but in fact I think you’d end up with more or them. They’d have to drastically raise all the state-bred incentives or you’d just end up with everyone getting shipped semen from the big Kentucky stallions.[/QUOTE]
I agree that you cant trust everything you read on line and all breeds pedigree can be changed by anyone as can Wickipedia. I was just wondering if T/Bs are ever measured officially like warmblood stallions at their testings are and ponies are for showing and all. It would be nice if they did have some accurate and non-biased information like this available…As it is you have to trust hte owners or go measure them yourself??
Still Zenyetta is a Phenom for sure!! But, if no embro transfers are allowed…well that is too bad. She could otherwise start a dynasty…
Just for the record it’s Wikipedia not to be confused with some sort of witchcraft variation of “wicka”, a flirty gesture like a “wink”, or even the 1973 cult classic horror film The Wicker Man 
Regarding Zenyatta - Stride Magazine (see March 2010; page 35) had a measure 17.1 hh … weight can vary but 1200-lbs there about would be close enough for government work as they say.
As far as having only live cover I think it’s really too bad. Here we have two of the most talented mares ever (Rachel and Z) and both will face the very real risk of dying during foaling. If mares are indeed so important in bloodlines, it seems an unnecessary risk to do this in this day and age.
Yes, I know they could break their leg during turnout or multitudes of other accidents or illnesses could happen, but dying during foaling does not HAVE to be a risk for them, except for the JC rules.
Just seems a shame that with the technology available now that it could happen at all.
I would think the real advantage to embryo transfer is you can keep running the valuable mare. If they aren’t carrying the foal they could still be making money.
17.2 hands
The “Queen” as she is called is 17.2 hands. Saw her in person last Sunday am. She also drinks bottled water only and eats 5# of carrots a day 
Our race trainer has an 18-hand TB. (He cannot run a step, anyone want a gray “warmblood”? :lol: ) I’ve seen Zenyatta & she is not as big as he is.
[QUOTE=danceronice;5282798]
I would think the real advantage to embryo transfer is you can keep running the valuable mare. If they aren’t carrying the foal they could still be making money.[/QUOTE]
Also true.
But just as an example, US top dressage mare Brentina now has a foal by ET. The surrogate mare died during foaling. Not to say Brentina would have died during foaing, but still, you get my drift. It happens.
Brentina
[QUOTE=DLee;5282979]
Also true.
But just as an example, US top dressage mare Brentina now has a foal by ET. The surrogate mare died during foaling. Not to say Brentina would have died during foaing, but still, you get my drift. It happens.[/QUOTE]
Which breeding are you reporting? Did the foal survive? She is reportedly in foal to Totilas with an enormous stud fee as reported that is. And yes, foaling is the most dangerous time in the life of a mare or foal. I am hoping we get this cross in USA and a stallion that can be here for us out of these two dressage giants. Giant in accomplishment that is.
18hh or not
This post drifted off track…has this ever happened before??:lol: The original question was is THe Queen 18hh and if so how did she get so tall? The average t/b in the USA is ‘reportedly’ 15.2hh so 18hh is a monster size for a mare.
I have been told and often seen in warmbloods, oversized geldings. (of course any colt this size would be gelded anyway) This can be caused by the combination of genetics and early gelding. The ‘testosterone surge’ that usually occurs at 18 months or, so caps the growth plates of the long bones…my cattle breeding friend tells me the same is true in calves. They try to nueter the little ones as soon as possible ot get them to grow taller and hopefully a larger frame for the ‘meat’ to pack on. My equine vet is the one who told me about the effects of the testosterone surge and timing of gelding. So, the pain in rear is that if they look to be too tall, you have to keep them entire longer…not fun for breeders. Anyone else know anything about this phenomenon?
She is not 18 hands tall. Several people have measured her with a stick, including Bob Baffert, comparing her to one of his big ones. She was bigger than his horse, but she’s not 18 hands. 17.1 and 17.2 are the measurements I’ve seen most often, including Baffert with a stick at 17.2.
How did she get as tall as she is? Who knows? Some lines do genetically tend to be taller, but there are also cases (I knew one personally, though not TB) of 17 hand and 14.2 FULL siblings. Same nutrition, etc., involved. There are many stories of a breeder in horses in general (not talking about TBs specifically here, but all horses) who had one either wind up taller or shorter than that breeder wished. It does happen. We wish we could “preprogram” everything and design a foal, but we can’t.
There are documented cases rarely of 18 hand TBs (although she is not 18 hands herself). They certainly are not “planned,” as the extra size slows them down as race horses and makes them mature later. But it DOES happen sometimes in TBs. Even if she were 18 hands, she would not be the only TB ever to hit that.
She was not an embryo transfer foal.
[QUOTE=dressagetraks;5284114]
There are documented cases rarely of 18 hand TBs … Even if she were 18 hands, she would not be the only TB ever to hit that.[/QUOTE]
For some reason - and I could be totally wrong here - but Haligator’s race mare Grade A. Fancy I thought was at or just sliver under 18hh. Maybe she can chime in. You can see just how much bigger she is down the stretch compared to the mare on her outside.
youtube 2005 Philadelphia Park - F/M maiden 3yr and up 1-mi 70yrds
Thanks
[QUOTE=Glimmerglass;5284444]
For some reason - and I could be totally wrong here - but Haligator’s race mare Grade A. Fancy I thought was at or just sliver under 18hh. Maybe she can chime in. You can see just how much bigger she is down the stretch compared to the mare on her outside.
youtube 2005 Philadelphia Park - F/M maiden 3yr and up 1-mi 70yrds[/QUOTE]
Wow, I watched her, it got my heart pumping…she is a big girl!
I think the Jockey Club is mired in tradition re AI and surrogacy. Sure, there might be some people who would try to “game” it - but rules of one mare/one year/one surrogate could be implemented, and DNA testing will serve with regard to AI. Almost ALL Standardbreds are produced by AI (don’t know about surrogacy in that regard) and while the harness racing industry may not be as “big” as TBs, they ARE race horses and any supposed chicanery that would effect production of racers could happen there as easily as with TBs, but they seem to manage AI without any “cheating.” Frankly, with some of the stellar overseas stallions (and this works both ways), I would think they would JUMP at AI - the expense of shipping a mare to Europe for breeding or vice versa - AI would make it a lot easier to do some fantastic breedings.
A friend lost a lovely, big Bold Ruler line broodmare 2 days after foaling (and that was for a sport horse by Deputed Testamony). Being a broodmare is a high-risk profession and it’s too bad Rachel and Zenyatta have to take that risk. (Not being unfeeling about surrogates, but these are two spectacular mares and passing on their genetic material to the next generation should be a priority).
Of course, in Zenyatta case, who knows? They may have difficulty getting her in foal. The longer they race, “they” say, the more difficulties may occur. A friend had a lovely mare that raced, then competed as a sport horse for many years. When she bred her, she never did carry a foal to term. Look at Genuine Risk -and she was retired relatively early - one foal in her entire life.
[QUOTE=Slewdledo;5282926]
Our race trainer has an 18-hand TB. (He cannot run a step, anyone want a gray “warmblood”? :lol: ) I’ve seen Zenyatta & she is not as big as he is.[/QUOTE]
YES! :lol: I’m 5’10" and a total sucker for greys 
Embyro transfer is allowed in Standardbreds, but there are rules. The embryo transfer must be pre-approved. Frozen embryos can’t be used. You are only allowed to transfer one embryo to one surrogate mare (no using embryo transfer to get multiple foals per year from a single mare). Also, the genetic mother is not allowed to race in claiming races while the surrogate is carrying the foal (I thought this was all races but reading the rules again, it appears to be only claimers. Maybe someone who knows more than me can clarify.)
I know one STB horse that was born in 2001 and is the result of an embryo transfer. This is noted in his record when you look him up in USTA Pathway.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
