Hooray for smart phones
I saw the thread on Dr Deb’s site, and no I don’t think narrower up front is right for you because your horse (by their definition) is not downhill:
http://www.easphotography.com/Horses/General/Internet%20Discussions/ChronicleForums/Cody%20saddle%20fit%202014%20-%208.jpg
I think the gullet is too wide and/or has too much flare, which is causing your issues. You could correct for that with shims, but to the degree required, your saddle would look pretty ugly even if you could get the skirts back on.
I was just lamenting saddle fitting woes to Mr. PoPo and he reminded me that this is so difficult because we care about our horses and their well-being. There are many out there who wouldn’t go to the trouble and fuss and bother over getting a better fit. So there’s that . . . I guess. :ambivalence:
[QUOTE=aktill;7438211]
I saw the thread on Dr Deb’s site, and no I don’t think narrower up front is right for you because your horse (by their definition) is not downhill:
http://www.easphotography.com/Horses/General/Internet%20Discussions/ChronicleForums/Cody%20saddle%20fit%202014%20-%208.jpg
I think the gullet is too wide and/or has too much flare, which is causing your issues. You could correct for that with shims, but to the degree required, your saddle would look pretty ugly even if you could get the skirts back on.[/QUOTE]
Sigh, would it be better to try and sell it and go saddle shopping again? If I could even sell it 
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7438216]
I was just lamenting saddle fitting woes to Mr. PoPo and he reminded me that this is so difficult because we care about our horses and their well-being. There are many out there who wouldn’t go to the trouble and fuss and bother over getting a better fit. So there’s that . . . I guess. :ambivalence:[/QUOTE]
Lol, I totally understand Pocket Pony!
It definitely is VERY possible to go too far down the rabbit hole chasing perfection. I see plenty of folks who aren’t picky enough, but also some who drive themselves silly looking for perfection where there is none to find, and don’t end up doing anything (or blame their tools for riding shortcomings etc).
Best usually to learn to let your horse tell you when close enough is good enough, and fill in the rest yourself.
The horse industry is full of people who do things because they were told to do things, rather than because they understand WHY they’re doing them. When you look for the whys, life gets much easier.
The general principles underlying saddle fit aren’t super complicated when you get down to it:
- place load only on those structures best able to bear load.
- don’t place load on the scapula
- don’t place load on the spinous processes
- find a shape that best fits the horse without needing to be strapped in place
- don’t fall for “flexible load bearing” concepts
- rig so that the tree is not being pulled out of place (ie is evenly supported in some fashion)
Saddle doesn’t shift side to side, it just ends up forward against his shoulders, which violates principle #2.
You have done a lot of tweaking and building of saddles to fit your horse aktill, from the pictures I’ve shared (not sure if they are enough), if it were you, would you try and work with what you had or would you cut your losses and start over?
[QUOTE=froglander;7438226]
Sigh, would it be better to try and sell it and go saddle shopping again? If I could even sell it :([/QUOTE]
If you want to be sure, go to Home Depot and get some interlocking foam play mats. Cut them to the shape of the bar between where the tip is and the furthest place you can wedge you hand up under there. Stack enough together with double sided tape to completely fill the gap there (minus maybe a 1/4"). Use a bread knife or belt sander to taper to nothing where the bar would normally meet horse. Use a couple of stitches through the blanket or more double sided tape to hold to your pad. See if that fixes it.
If it does, you need a narrower gulleted tree as we initially suspected.
Remember that a narrower gullet doesn’t mean the bars are closer together under the seat, just that the don’t flare away from the shoulder as much. You still need ~4" of bar separation back under the seat, enough twist in the bar to match the transtion from angled shoulder to flat loin, but only enough flare to allow shoulder freedom without pressure.
Reading Dave’s material, you also have to decide whether you believe that you can use so much flare as to be able to have the bar tips over the shoulder but not touching. He does that in order to be able to scoot the saddle as far forward as possible.
I don’t want to do that because I want to be able to rope, and lateral loads aren’t going to be easily borne if the fork is over the shoulder.
A much thicker pad might help too since that will fill in the wither gap, even if it will feel like you’re sitting on a pile of pillows (I hate the stacked pad feeling)
[QUOTE=aktill;7438253]
If you want to be sure, go to Home Depot and get some interlocking foam play mats. Cut them to the shape of the bar between where the tip is and the furthest place you can wedge you hand up under there. Stack enough together with double sided tape to completely fill the gap there (minus maybe a 1/4"). Use a bread knife or belt sander to taper to nothing where the bar would normally meet horse. Use a couple of stitches through the blanket or more double sided tape to hold to your pad. See if that fixes it.[/QUOTE]
I’m just trying to make sure I understand what you’ve said here right. I would get those foam play mats and use them to sort of “build up” the tree from the outside?
[QUOTE=aktill;7438253]
Reading Dave’s material, you also have to decide whether you believe that you can use so much flare as to be able to have the bar tips over the shoulder but not touching. He does that in order to be able to scoot the saddle as far forward as possible.
I don’t want to do that because I want to be able to rope, and lateral loads aren’t going to be easily borne if the fork is over the shoulder.[/QUOTE]
I’m not really looking to rope, mostly just ride in the arena, trails, and obstacle challenge type stuff. Maybe play with cows someday, but not roping.
Basically create a wedge to fill where there’s a gap right now.
[QUOTE=aktill;7438267]
A much thicker pad might help too since that will fill in the wither gap, even if it will feel like you’re sitting on a pile of pillows (I hate the stacked pad feeling)[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I used to have a 1" 5-Star pad that was crazy thick, I sold it and got the 3/4" inch and wish I’d gotten a 7/8".
Right now I often stick 1/4" felt shims under the front of the saddle and sometimes them seem to help and other times not so much.
[QUOTE=aktill;7438273]
Basically create a wedge to fill where there’s a gap right now.[/QUOTE]
Okay, that makes sense, thanks 
And I suppose I should just get over not liking to use a back cinch as well?
Yep, fraid so. By only using the front you’re making the problem worse I’m afraid. You already have too much room up front, and you’re pulling the saddle into that void.
I sympathize. I hadn’t realized how much easier my leg cues were for my horse to understand until I went single cinch. If I couldn’t though, I still wouldn’t lose the rear one.
Darn, but kinda figured.
What would I look for in a saddle that would allow the use of one cinch?
The pad doesn’t seem to move independently of the saddle, I think the whole thing just ends up a bit forward. I have a 3/4" 5-star pad. I like that it is a fairly dense felt.
Funny how two mustangs both fit the “mule” fitting form, lol.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7438136]
Froglander, what kind of saddle is that? When I used the Steele tree forms on Mac he also came up with a mule tree.
I’m finding I’m having the same problem as you and it is frustrating, to say the least. Mac seems to like the saddle but it rides forward, the pad (that I thought I had worked out) still slides out the back, and it rolls a bit. I think I might have to accept that it is too wide and see if I can find something else. I want to bang my head against a wall and scream in frustration!!!
Let me know if you figure anything out, pad-wise. I’ve tried various pads (think I’m on my seventh now) and thought I had it nailed down but now I’m second-guessing. :grief::mad::no:[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=froglander;7438577]
Darn, but kinda figured.
What would I look for in a saddle that would allow the use of one cinch?[/QUOTE]
Either a true centerfire, 5/8 or 3/4 plate rig, or a double d rig built well.
[QUOTE=aktill;7438806]
Either a true centerfire, 5/8 or 3/4 plate rig, or a double d rig built well.[/QUOTE]
What is yours?
Can you name any saddles off the top of your head that have true centerfire rigging?
What about how the JJ Maxwell saddles do their rigging?
Pretty!
