Advice/insight needed: trying to create a plan with dad for the family horses after mom's passing

Yes absolutely this.

Unfortunately, people can be very hesitant about POA’s, because they misunderstand and think they are handing over control of their bank accounts, immediately. Very possibly that is not so.

POA’s can vary by state as to details. But where I am, you can say to your dad that “The POA isn’t immediately effective. It only becomes effective if you give the word that you want it to be. Or if you are in a health condition where you can’t make your preferences known.”

A family-matters lawyer will have a standard set of documents for people when they are aging and/or have other decision-making concerns. It varies by state. I live in a state with a separate POA for health care decisions. Etc. and so on, depending on where you are.

Everyone believes they will get all of this done in advance. So few people actually do. My family was very, very fortunate that my mother had the foresight to insist on this step for both herself and my dad, many years before all the documents were actually needed.

Good pick up. And note that the person who has the POA must have an original of the document for it to be used. When we went to the lawyer with my aunt, we just had two originals made. She felt reassured that she had one, and we were able to use ours when she was suddenly hospitalized.

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Right, and do not let that original out of your sight. If a bank et al insist on seeing “the original”, "we’ll return it after we send it to our lawyers six states away for review ", say no. You’ll bring it to the local office and a bank officer can verify it with you right there.

The truth is that they just need to verify the latest version on file with the court / county. They can do that online. They need you to send a matching pdf version so they don’t have to pay to download it directly from the court (it can be expensive).

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Another thought that might help in broaching it to your dad–I don’t know what estate plans were in place when your mom passed but they will probably need to be revisited and POAs and medical POAs are usually part of that process. I have a living trust and they are part of that. And you don’t have to be old! You just have to own property or have some assets you want to protect.

When your mom was alive, she would have probably been the one to go to in the event of something happening to him. Now that she is not there, he has no one that can (legally) advocate for him if something happens. Pitch it in terms of something accidental—not a health concern, because you’ve already heard his response to that. What if someone runs a red light and t-bones him? Car wreck, drunk driver, trips over the cat and hits his head—he’s not at fault but he might be in a coma. You are absolutely helpless to help him without that POA. He needs to understand that. He needs to understand that if he is temporarily incapacitated, you couldn’t even transfer money between his bank accounts to pay his bills. It’s just not legal anywhere! Also, it’s not that he gives up his control. He’s just sharing it with the person closest to him who he can trust if he has to. By all means, do it before he hooks up with someone looking for money and “security.”!! I’ve heard some crazy “older parent” stories!!!

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Just want to say I’m so sorry for what you are going through. Between dealing with your grief and your father’s issues, it’s a lot.

Everyone is making very logical, excellent suggestions about how to proceed. But based on how you describe your dad’s defensiveness and complicated emotional state, I’m not sure he will be willing to go along with any of that.

My advice would be to get your place ready for the horses and then, when the time comes that you need to get them out of there, come up with some personal reason (like a personal crisis, loneliness, needing a friend for another horse that you got, whatever) and insist that you “need” the horses.

Many elderly people cannot face their own mortality and will do extremely illogical things as part of their self-protective pretense that they are going to live forever–buying/keeping horses, refusing to make a will, refusing to get their affairs in order, etc. Anything that you connect your father’s mortality to is going to be rejected out of hand, so you need to find other reasons.

As far as trying to help your father get his affairs in order, good luck with that. These internet relationships are very pervasive. My own father has been having one, and there has been no way to get him to stop, even though it’s the most bizarre situation ever. It’s really insane to watch your parents freaking out over basic legal paperwork that would protect them in case of an emergency, and then hand over money to a stranger, no questions asked, at the same time.

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Hi everyone,

I’m delayed in responding but I wanted to say thank you so much for all the insight, advice, and kind comments. I appreciate you taking the time to read and respond. The last couple of weeks have been a little hectic, with one horse going lame (abscess) so I spent a lot of time going back and forth to check on him, re-wrap, etc.

During that week, I had a lot of time to think and felt like I was getting to a better place mentally with how to juggle all of this–what’s in my control and what’s not. But it just seems like things with my dad are trending in a concerning direction and I have no idea how or where to go from here–if anywhere. This extends beyond my concerns about the horses. Honestly, I have friends and people who have offered to keep them for me until our own property is ready, so that part would be fine. But there is so much more to this situation and I feel like many of you might have experiences to help me navigate.

As many have stated, it does seem like there is at least some level of cognitive decline happening. He has been doing a lot to get his affairs in order since my mom’s passing, so the other week was an opportune time to bring up a POA. I asked if he had updated it (knowing he probably didn’t have one in the first place) and he said “I don’t have one, I have a will”. I explained why he would need a POA, and that it’s something I’ve of course learned throughout the process of losing my mom and that my husband and I need to do as well. He just brushed it off. I tried to text him later to elaborate on my fears of him not having one since I can’t get a word in edgewise sometimes, and he hit me with a thumbs-up emoji.

I’ve been trying to pay a lot more attention to any other tendencies he has as I’ve been around him a lot more lately. My dad has always been one to repeat stories, but I’m noticing it happening a lot more. When I visit, I’ll say something like “I am going to do the barn and then ride”. He will ask me, often multiple times right after, “so what are you doing now?” Might sound weird and not be a good example, but it’s stood out to me.

Now that it’s getting colder, I asked him to start putting sheets on the horses overnight, especially because one of the horses has been showing his age this year and I am concerned about keeping weight on. I sent him a text asking him to blanket once they come in for dinner and take them off in the AM before going out. My sister went over there yesterday evening, so I asked her to please check that he did so because I had the feeling he wouldn’t. She said they weren’t blanketed and asked him three times “should we go blanket the horses?” until she finally did so herself. His response when she went and did so was “do we really need to?” Now, I’ve explained this to my dad for a while and he’s certainly seen that my mom blanketed for many years (granted, I’m learning he didn’t pay a ton of attention to the horses over the time we’ve had them. I had someone tell me recently that previous to my mom’s passing, they weren’t sure he knew their names, so I think he paid less attention than I realized. That, or again, cognitive decline). My sister is fairly non-horsey as well, but more well-versed than him, told him yes, we need to blanket. I asked if she thought he was forgetting or if he just didn’t want to do it–she said she wasn’t sure. She thinks he probably originally forgot, and then didn’t think it was important.

Just to add more to this situation, my dad had over a decade of sobriety until recently. I don’t know when he started back but he is now hanging out at a local bar. This was something else he decided to disclose to me at the same time he told me about his dating endeavors. I hate to use this word but him drinking is… triggering. When he quit, he sat and promised me he would never drink again. That was the first he ever acknowledged having a drinking problem in my entire life. And now he’s talking about this great bar he goes to, seemingly multiple nights a week.

So allllllll of this to say… What can I even do? Anything? If I bring up the idea of seeing a doctor for cognitive issues, that certainly won’t go over well. I’ve been frank with him about the drinking and bars, and he downplays how much he does (of course). In terms of the horses, as I’ve mentioned I have a lot of neighbors keeping eyes on them and can help with things if needed, but what if it seems like he’s not caring for them as he should? How the heck do I pluck them out of there if he’s unwilling to let me care for them? I can imagine having support from friends, neighbors, or other family would help with the horses. But this currently feels like such a private matter (despite me putting this out on the internet, lol) I don’t even know where to go outside of my immediate family.

Thanks for reading if you got this far. What a freaking mess.

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I’m late but wanted to say thank you so much.

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I’m sorry that you’re going through this and, in all honesty, I think it’ll get worse before it gets any better at all. This is only a guess, but he may be going to the bar for company now that your mom isn’t there. Once there, a convivial drink is pretty hard to resist. Best case scenario is that he has a minor car accident coming home one night. It might convince him that he isn’t invulnerable. Or maybe a horse knocks him down or he slips and falls. But I know from experience how resistant an aging parent can be. Are there friends or a religious affiliation that can help?

I don’t know if I’ve mentioned this, but there is a wonderful guide for families available on line. It’s called Five Wishes, and it guides discussion about the hard questions that all families face at some point. It might be a way to bring things up with him, to say “I didn’t know how Mom wanted things handled. I want to do exactly what you wish. Would you take a few minutes to help me?” AIR, the first session I had with my parents about this, we stopped after one or two questions. But we eventually got through all of them and it was invaluable. It also discusses health care proxies which we segued into POA, and then getting on the bank accounts.

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I’ve been debating on contacting some of his friends and not get into a ton of details about everything I’ve said here but that I really would like for them to check on him. Or something… I don’t know. I’ve been in touch with many of them, because he still hasn’t responded to anyone since my mom’s passing. I just feel that, similar to his drinking, this has become some sort of family secret and my sister and I are left to carry that burden. I feel like we need some sort of outside support.

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My heart goes out to you, and your family, 1000x.

Any adult with mental issues, and/or just very poor judgment, can be very, very hard to control, financially, behaviorally, legally. Especially at this point, if they’ve never had an official diagnosis that allows such control (rare!), in most locations it’s almost impossible to get one now. Don’t know how it would work. Often the subject person has to agree to any doctor / other professional examination, and all too frequently they opt out.

That said – you didn’t mention your attorney visit, to discuss this family situation and all of your alternatives. If I knew who you are and where you are, I’d call myself and schedule you. :smirk: :grin: This is on you. Gotta get it done. Best hourly fee you will ever spend.

I get the frustration of being given a lot of paperwork to get your dad to sign, knowing that’s an uphill battle. But you also need to hear the experienced attorney’s experience, thoughts and observations.

This is what worked with my dad, knowing that everyone, and every situation, is different. My dad was of the Korean War generation, grew up during WWII so not quite that generation, but before the Boomers. He graduated military college as a 2nd lieutenant, did 2 years in Korea, came home and married mom.

So that’s the traditional family type of framework that was his life, that meant that he was Head of the Family. Throughout his final years we continued to treat him as Head of the Family, who was being catered to with rides to the doctor, attorney consultations, special caregivers, all things being done for him, not to him. That got a lot of cooperation. Not always perfect, but he actually got better as things progressed and he was more dependent.

The other thing was never, ever getting into the weeds of “what we need to do”. As you mention with the cognitive, it no longer made sense to him. He’d divert, deflect, never ever get into what was needed.

Instead of that, do it, then bring the paperwork home for him to sign. Or, we’d take him to the attorney’s office to tell him what needed to be done, and/or sign. At first, we went to the attorney’s office and the attorney explained it – dad listened politely. To get him there I just announced “We have an appointment on [date] at [time] with the attorney [name] to review some things for the family.” Placed a note with this info on the kitchen counter. And then left to avoid a big discussion/argument! :wink: By the time for the appointment (I drove), he was curious and ready to go.

What dad really got out of the attorney visit was that ‘this is what Responsible Heads of Family do’. That is what impressed him, not the why’s and wherefore’s. Later when the paperwork came he was ready to sign, if the attorney was invoked.

Made it a formal occasion. “We have some papers from the attorney.” Everything cleared from the kitchen table to get this thing done, an assumption in our manner and tone that these things were necessary for the family structure, of which he was the responsible head.

Our expectations were couched, framed and contextualized, that these things that needed to be signed or done by him as the Head of the Family. It was already prepared for him so he didn’t have do to much but sign. Everyone relying on his responsible role. It worked a charm, because it fit his personality.

He’d sign anything if I sat down with him at a clear kitchen table and presented important documents (that he didn’t read) and said very formally, as if I were the attorney, “You need to sign here. OK here’s the next one, here’s where you sign.” And/or “The attorney [name that he knew and trusted] says to sign here.” Dang it worked.

If he asked “what is this for?” I’d keep it brief and high level, no details. Like getting a stack of routine signatures from a CEO. Looking down at the papers, not at him. “This will make sure that we will take care of your affairs if you can’t. Here’s where you sign.” “This is in case you are unconscious in the ER and the doctors need to talk to us. Here’s where you sign.” Sometimes I’d invoke the attorney’s name, preferencing the comment with "[Attorney name] says … "

If he wanted more explanation (rarely), I’d put the papers aside and say “Sure, let’s go talk to the attorney and he can explain.” That way it’s not me on the spot! :sweat_smile: My dad would almost immediately say that wasn’t needed and sign (avoiding another hourly bill from the attorney!).

If I/we tried to explain why it was important, or what it meant, he wouldn’t sign, or listen, or discuss. He’d deflect and divert, he’d say maybe later, maybe it wasn’t needed. The more words from others, the less he was into it.

I think he could no longer follow all of that. He needed things very simple and formal.

The truth is that he was a math/physics genius who had probably never fully understood the legal stuff. He had always followed his attorney’s guidance, or mom’s guidance. He thought mom was smart and actually read the complicated stuff, which was true. If she was signing, he’d sign. After mom was gone, if the attorney said so, then he would sign.

OP, your dad is likely of a different generation. But if you can make your strategy fit his own self-image, his role in the family and in society, whatever that is, it might help. And it might take different tries spaced out in time. Don’t be surprised if, at some later point, you find a window of time when he is much more compliant. As he realizes for himself the amount of his decline, and before he loses all rationality. There is no knowing how long that window of time will last.

Also: I would not just say “you need a POA”. People think they are immediately signing away all of their assets. Something like “you need a POA that only becomes effective if you aren’t able to make your own decisions, so the bills get paid and that kind of stuff”. “You need a Health Care POA that only becomes effective if you are unconscsious or something and the doctors need information.” Whatever resonates with that individual.

Keep “only becomes effective if” in the sentence. They know they need that POA. What they don’t want is something that gives away their bank accounts now, which is most people’s default assumption.

You need to get the HIPAA forms done for every medical office your dad sees, both GP and the hospital(s) within his insurance. They will not speak to the family without it, except in some emergency cases.

Good luck!! I wish there was an easier path. This is hard for every family, each in their own unique way. You aren’t alone !!! :orange_heart:

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@OverandOnward, once again you’ve provided a master class. Thank you for shaing your experiences.

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@OverandOnward Thank you again, so much, for your insight. I didn’t call an attorney, which I’m definitely willing to do. When you mention this, would this discussion be for me to have with an attorney, or would it be with him + sibling included? I just don’t know how I’ll be able to get him on board. I don’t think he’s at the point where I can just say “hey, I’ve scheduled us an appointment” and that he will go along with it.

I do like your suggestion about framing conversations in a way that he is treated as Head of the Family and “that’s what responsible Heads of Family do”. I think that is an excellent idea that I’ll start incorporating.

Pretty sure we were added to HIPPA forms after the last time he was hospitalized, but have been meaning to check. Great point and reminder. Thank you again!

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At this point, you and your siblings are the Parents overseeing and caring for the Head of the Family. :upside_down_face: :grin: That’s a strange place to be, but as I said you are in a large boat. This happens in every family with an aging parent, sooner or later.

So, in another framework, you guys are the Regents actually running the country, on behalf of the Prince & Heir. Only there is a reversal. He’s coming down the heirarchy of decision-making, while you guys are going up. Hope that makes sense.

Even briefer context: Basically, the train is leaving the station, and he can decide if he wants to be on it. Or, maybe join at a later stop. But the train is going, with or without him.

The train analogy goes for your siblings as well. It is common for one or more of the grown children to resist seeing the changes, to avoid working toward the inevitable future. That can create variable levels of difficulty, depending.

But those with more foresight have to commit to responsibly continuing the journey, with or without those who can’t see. You are discussing with them, keeping them informed. You are asking them to join. But you are not asking them if you can continue. You are doing that, with or without.

So, with that as the context, do what you think works best in your situation. It may mean some extra attorney visits and extra attorney fees – or not. You can discuss with your sibs (or not, your call) and decide if you want to do visit #1 on your own or with them.

And if your dad should come in at visit #1, or later. Try this to get him to go: “We [whoever is we, or “I”] am seeing an attorney on [day-time] to talk over how to handle the future, now that mom is gone. We want you to be involved, of course. Do you want to come?”

Even if he gets upset, it is not up to him, you are going, with or without him. These things are happening. He can participate, or not.

If you have a fair-minded sibling who is loaded with common sense, I’d start there. Sometimes the one taking the lead defines and frames the problem. But the real solutions may come from others, who have their own clear perspectives. Hopefully you won’t carry this load alone.

Also, don’t get sucked into interminable, circular arguments with anyone, arguments that wear on you. Hear them out, repeat back to them their concerns, incorporate those if they are reasonable. But don’t let them become a boat anchor to progress, or especially to your mental health. You all need a lot of strength for the indefinite future.

Families have heirarchies. Acknowledged or un-acknowledged. This is a delicate landscape to navigate when hard decisions are at hand. Those heirarchies can shuffle almost imperceptably. Sounds like you are making your way to the top, at least where your dad is concerned. Acknowledged or un-acknowledged. And that could also change over time.

BTW deciding how the attorney will be paid and from whose accounts is a very big part of the decision-making.

You could defer that decision until after attorney visit #1. But not forever, make it a sticking point with no further progress until it is decided, if others are deflecting the question. Your dad likely won’t be the only practitioner of diversion, deflection and avoidance. I was very, very fortunate that my sibs were like-minded re our dad. It isn’t that way in every family.

Hopefully this won’t be too complicated. Sometimes the complications build up in our minds to be larger than they need to be. Try to keep your mind open to some obvious, more simple, choices, that are less fraught with the emotions of each person involved. Hopefully they do the same. Everyone may be grateful for simpler solutions! :slightly_smiling_face:

You can do this! :slightly_smiling_face:

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Ummm…when sister and I did this with Mom, the attorney made it very clear that the “client” was Mom…not sister and I. We sat in on the meetings, etc, but when it came to signing POA, etc we were asked to leave the room and attorney asked Mom if she was doing this freely.

Also, POA come in 2 flavors…“Durable POA” and “Springing POA.” The Durable version takes effect as soon as the person signs…the Springing version requires that there be some trigger…like a doctor declaring a person as not competent. Based on some friends interactions with doctors and courts, my recommendation is to stay away from those.

Depending on the state, there are other documents:

  1. Revocable Trust;
  2. Last Will And Testament;
  3. Power Of Attorney;
  4. Designation Of Health Care Surrogate;
  5. Living Will Declaration;
  6. Declaration Of Preneed Guardian; and
  7. Authorization For Use and Disclosure of Protected Health Information.
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Yeah, I read that novella and was rather quizzical about the idea that the children just tell dad what’s going to happen. Cute story, lol. I’m down here collaborating/conspiring behind the scenes with mom’s hospice social worker to get my dad to put mom on the potty once a night instead of letting her marinade in a dirty diaper.

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In my experience, nothing will change with parents until something significant forces a change that they can’t avoid. You can talk, suggest, beg and plead but until they are faced with something life altering, nothing will happen. Sometimes you just have to wait for the next shoe to drop and take it from there.

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I call this “managing up.” A talent that is best perfected in the corporate world when you want to convince your boss…or boss’s boss…that something needs to be done and it is their brilliant idea.

Not that I was particularly good at it in the corporate world, but I found that one needs to figure out the “what’s in it for me (eg., boss/parent).”

Example…with Dad, he asked my opinion about a money manager. I told him he was a BS artist. Of course, my advice went nowhere until the balances in retirement accounts started to go down. It took 2 years, but I got them to shift to Vanguard and their account balances have nicely grown. Dad’s “WIIFM” was fear of depleting retirement accounts.

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Did you understand that it is what really happened? One family’s experience.

With someone who, over time, became increasingly, almost dangerously irrational. We were able to make progress with major paperwork before the point of not being able to sign anything. There was a way to make it work, in that situation. Other methods did not work at all – in that situation.

One person’s true story might help someone else. Maybe not. But there is that opportunity.

That isn’t everyone’s experience. But dismissing it as a ‘novella’ is not helping anyone, is it.

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It’s unfortunate that the way I read it was full of confidence and assurance that sure, it takes time but it’s imminently possible, even plausible, that dear old dad will come along. I hate everything about my lived experience and others being the direct opposite. I’m bitter about the unrelenting challenge of my lying, selfish, narcissistic bully of a dear old dad that me and my siblings have the joy of navigating. I don’t want anyone to feel like a failure if dear old dad is a right nasty old prick. Leopards don’t change their spots. I’m sorry I offended you.

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You did. But I understand where you are coming from.

There are no promises or gaurantees. Only things to try.

Mine was a spotty leopard, for sure. I now believe that he was ‘on the spectrum’ of autism. Never diagnosed, as a late-1930’s to 40’s schoolkid. Although he had a sensational technical career in engineering.

Throughout his adult life, his temper was legendary and unpredictable. They say that whatever you are in adult life, you become more that, with dementia. It was certainly true with both of my parents.

The news report of the old guy who shot and killed an innocent kid knocking on the door? That could easily have been my dad. That story froze my heart. His lifetime collection of guns went out of the house immediately (I hadn’t even thought about them, they were such a normal part of the household).

Some time afterward I found one last shotgun hidden under his bed. Fortunately he never said anything about it disappearing. I don’t know if he accepted that it was gone, or was past realizing.

Many things in the household had to change to protect the world from Dad once he was past all rationality, but still physically strong and vigorous. Fox News paranoid world vision didn’t help. I’ve got video of Dad ranting about “they are coming to get us!”, me thinking he had finally, truly lost it, only to realize that almost the same words were coming from the television, at the same time. I video’d the tv Fox News, too, as a sort of side-by-side. [Other families have told me the same thing, especially in the lead-up to the 2020 election.]

Thankfully us siblings were all on the same page. That isn’t the case in every family. Those conflicts can be profoundly disruptive and counter-productive.

It was a major strategic effort to get cooperation on the needed legalities. A lot of fails and missteps. My account was far short of the whole story. Just the part that finally worked. But in the end, thankfully it was done.

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