As you probably know I also believe that the cost of showing in the US is way to high. and that Is good for wealthy riders as well 
…
I truly believe that running these huge UDEF and USDF machines destroys more money then necessary…
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I am not really competitive and in fact havent shown in many years, so that may color my views. But I really dont see the utility of pro vs amateur as they are currently defined. When I did show, I just went open rather than going through the effort to get an AA card.
It probably would be more useful to have some sort of “limit” class in which the rider must own and hasn’t shown above X level in Y years. And horse may not be shown by rider or another at more than one level higher the previous and current year.
I would like to get some help from a lovely higher-level rider near me, but I have to wait until she decides if she wants to be an ammy and so couldn’t do any lessons/coaching for money.
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I find it interesting that people want to show and win prizes, yet bemoan the cost of showing all the while wanting to have a level playing field where someone polices everyone and their sister to make sure that nobody has an “unfair” advantage over anyone.
Awhile ago someone here complained about an amateur rider that routinely imported nice young horses, showed them TL or 1st, cleaned up at regionals, sold the horses and started over. I wish I was talented enough to train/ride a fancy young horse and sell at a profit!
“Wealthy” amateurs who finished school and established themselves professionally that can afford good training and nice horses are considered by some to have an “unfair” advantage over someone with less. Funny, we don’t hear those folks complaining about the “unfair” advantage of someone who got to ride more as a kid and young adult.
One could argue that amateur owner classes are unfair because they exclude people who can’t afford to own a horse or are leasing to test the waters.
I’ve come to the conclusion that some people just are not going to be happy unless they win and everything is “affordable” to them personally. Sadly, those people are missing the real value of equestrian sport IMO.
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I’ve come to the conclusion that some people just are not going to be happy unless they win and everything is “affordable” to them personally. Sadly, those people are missing the real value of equestrian sport IMO.
Yes 
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At the Bengt Ljundquist Memorial Championships in Region 1, divisions are split as you suggest (although with no limitations based on the horse’s experience). Basically if the rider has done more than one level above the entered level they are in one division, and if not they are in another (though they can opt into the “open” division). So if you’re entering 3rd and have shown at PSG, you can’t be in the “limited” division. The prize list is here: http://www.cblm.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/21CBLMRules.pdf
In eventing, divisions (Horse, Rider, and Open) are set similarly except you/your horse can’t have shown at the higher level in the last 5 years (which I think is better than a lifetime rule personally). Amateur divisions technically exist but are very uncommon.
I don’t really have skin in this game (I’m not even a USDF member right now since I am focusing on eventing, and I’ve done GP anyway so without a time limit I’d be in the “open” class forever), but what about crafting and submitting a rule proposal for consideration by the USEF? Has an idea like this ever been formally considered?
I tend to agree with @atlatl and others regarding the existence of a perfectly level playing field, but maybe the current amateur vs. pro distinction could be replaced with something that better reflects rider experience, does not disincentivize low-level teaching, and does not encourage rule skirting and violation reporting.
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While I tend to agree with the spirit of your post, I don’t agree with much. Please hear me.
I want to show and collect SCORES, but I certainly bemoan the cost of showing and would like a more level playing field.
The vast majority of AA’s I’ve know who regularly show came from money and rode on their parent’s dime when they were not independent. Many of them did not face the expenses that the typical AA faces. I disagree that riding as a kid helps so much, yet most of these people did or as a young adult. Riding as a kid teaches you to hang on and ride over hills and dales or swimming in a lake. That’s not dressage training. It is obviously a different story when you can afford to keep your horse in professional training and come out and take lessons. Are you suggesting that training your horse yourself via periodic or once a week lessons is the same as having your horse in full-time professional training? They are incongruous.
Dressage just has amateur classes, not amateur owner last I knew.
I’ve come to the conclusion that some people just can’t understand why people without such a huge disposable income become annoyed at always competing against wealthy amateurs on imports in full training. That’s not a level playing field. And this is coming from someone who trained their own horse to a 3rd level Regional CH and 4th Reserve Regional CH. Sadly, some people miss the real value of equestrian sport, IMO.
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I hear you, and actually sympathize but there is always going to be someone with more money and a nicer horse. There is literally no way to completely level the playing field. Unless, you are competing only against yourself and look to improve your own scores.
If your concern is a level playing field, then I can’t help but think that your end goal is “winning.” Forgive me if I’m wrong and please clarify otherwise.
This is not my experience. The vast majority of AAs I know that regularly show are like me; someone who was horse crazy as a kid, but didn’t own a horse until they were an adult and financially independent and could afford to get some level of professional help whether it was occasional lessons or some level of training. Yes, there are some of the folks you describe, but they are not the majority by a long shot. They also are not showing lower than PSG typically. I’m in Southern California, YMMV.
Of course not! I’m stating that it’s unreasonable to expect a level playing field if your definition of the same goes beyond being fairly judged according to a set standard. Frankly, the biggest gripe I hear at shows isn’t about who’s in training and who has the fancy import, but some that think the judging standard should be different for ammies but that’s a whole other topic.
I know, that was in response to someone else’s suggestion for an “amateur owner to ride” division a la what the Arabs do.
Actually, I think I understand it pretty well. It’s frustrating to go out wanting to win, doing your best and be out-horsed or just plain out-ridden by someone with more resources. Been there, done that. As an example, back when I did AQHA all around, I remember carefully maneuvering my position going into a rail class so I’d be behind a horse that wasn’t as fancy as mine. I was crushed when the then World Champion All Around Amateur carefully maneuvered her position to be behind me.
Here’s where we differ apparently; nobody is forcing anyone to show. If your goal is to improve yourself and your horse, your scores will reflect that kind of progress. If you just want the ribbon, well, good luck with that.
Congratulations to you on these accomplishments.
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I don’t understand your post. If you truly are looking for scores and not ribbons, why do you talk in terms of competing against other people? Do the other people in the class make a difference in your scores?
That aside, it is a pipe dream to ever hope for a level playing field in dressage, or any other endeavor where money can buy better equipment and training. That’s just the way it is.
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I’ll be honest, I don’t understand the annoyance, particularly when you say you compete to get scores. The quality or price tag of a horse someone else is riding has absolutely zero impact on your scores with your horse. That’s frankly what I love about dressage. Placing is irrelevant; scores are everything.
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Thanks, peeps!
To be clear, after scribing for many years, all horses are compared to their peers. That is how the judge places horses. I’ve shown enough to know that my placement depends on the horses in the class, and not uncommonly, my comments on the score sheet depends on the horses in the class. I’ve scribed enough to know how this works. Absolutely no offense to the judge, they separate the rides they see. Some are better with comments than others.
Sure, no body is forcing anyone to show. But that is pretty much the place where you’ll get unbiased feedback on you riding/training. I know some judges will award innate talent over riding because they told me so. And, you can often see this. It’s not always about the ribbon, sometimes it is about riding a more average horse better than a poorly ridden great mover. Putting the work in. Training the horse to the level. Riding the horse to the level. Not just sitting on a great mover your (g) trainer trained to the level at a show. Sorry, it is not uncommon for a rider to sit on a well trained, talented horse trained by someone else in the show ring and win or do well. Rider scores are just x 2. Sure, no one is forcing anyone to show, but why should I spend $500-700 per weekend to have a horse with great gaits but poor fundamental training/riding beat me? It’s not about the ribbon, it is about the training/riding. Can many of you drop the ribbon-getting in this thread?
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I’m glad that the AAs you know are just like you. That is not my experience at all. That is the majority in three regions I’ve shown in. Now I live a fourth region but haven’t shown in recognized shows in, and they are here, too. Wealthy amateurs on schoolmasters or imports not trained by themselves do well even if they cant ride the horse well. I can’t show enough to get my horse OK with the warm-up or show arena. I accept that. You do recognize how expensive a show is, right? But poor riding should be called out beyond the rider score. It is often not, just the gait and movement scores are noted.
I’m no newbie to showing or to dressage training.
Thank you!
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Honestly this sentence always reminds me of the evergreen “if you don’t like it here go to another country”. trumpster used this against anybody not agreeing with them…
I do agree that there will never be a level playing field… No Sport has a level playing field because people tend to try to gain advantages… But for me the AA Rule has similarities with the laws Republican like to introduce to keep people from voting… Like no food and water while waiting in line, or an ID which includes a street adress otherwise no voting…
Why is it necessary to divide classes up into Open classes and AA classes…
If I would have any saying who is competing against me(not that I even care, I am usually to busy with myself) I for my person prefer to compete against one of these lower level Pros who is riding whatever he gets then to compete against an extremly rich AA who is steering a 100.000 Dollar horse through a TL test… And I am still not sure what difference the not so rich person makes who finances her passion by giving a couple of lessons or is riding some horses…
But I don’t really care anymore just expressing my personal opinion, It took Native Americans in North Dakota til 2020 to get the right to vote… So this rule will stay…
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Good luck with that…
. This is similar to the task to make voting for Native Americans possible…
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Jesus, Mary and Joseph! How do you come up with this stuff?
Are you really comparing participation in equestrian sport to voter suppression? People have a right to vote. There is no inherent right to win a ribbon at a horse show.
To conflate the two is beyond the pale.
For someone who alleges they don’t care, you sure seem unable to move on. Everyone else is having a civil discussion.
Show me “an extremly rich AA who is steering a 100.000 Dollar horse through a TL test” and I’ll mail you a check for $100. I double dog dare you!
And Native Americans in North Dakota had the right to vote, however voter ID laws were suppressing that right. Please get your facts straight.
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If you think so and yes I am thinking about a specific AA but this Person moved up since then .
And the Native Americans could have moved away from their reservation in order to get a street adress… So they did have a choice as well…
And honestly I don’t want your 100 $ I have all the money I need… maybe donate it to some reservation in North Dakota…
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Those of you that want a level playing field against the “rich AA” how do you think that can be accomplished?
Even in the system here, there are still those with what would he considered an “unfair” advantage. Yes, that’s right, Germany isn’t perfect 
Regarding finances, I board at a nice place, with lessons once a week, and sometimes more with another instructor if they visit or I trailer somewhere. My horse is not in full training, no pro sits on him aside from once in a blue moon to feel something out, and he was not an expensive purchase. Should I cry because 20 or so min away there is a very posh and exclusive stable with top (€€) dressage horses that are in full-on training programs, with pros/top trainers doing the majority of riding for the clients because I can’t afford it? No. Do they have an “advantage” technically, yes. But that’s life.
I agree that correct riding of the horse and the test should be awarded over the horse being a nice mover and the rider just sort of being there, and that is something that’s been discussed many times on here. That happens everywhere, just depends on to what extent.
Should I be stomping my feet because I don’t own a big fancy warmblood? Ok, I did own one at one point…plus you could not pay me to own a warmblood again (once you go Iberian…). The thing is, I am not entitled to any of this. The fact that I even get to ride, own a horse, and be at the stable everyday is a privilege and luxury that I am so greatly appreciative of. I thoroughly enjoy the training process and can monitor our progress. I feel it rewarding with or without competition. When I go to a competition and do well, it’s just icing on the cake!
Sure competition is a place to get (what you hope to be) unbiased feedback. You can also do this via online shows or online video feedback programs, that use real judges. Sure you don’t get the “show atmosphere” but my point is that there are other means to obtain feedback if that is your goal, but cannot (for whatever reason).
Competitions in America are expensive, but we never seem to be able to fix that “problem” on any of these threads. Which…doesn’t surprise me for a variety of reasons.
I have a other hobby that also highlights advantages. Sort of created a rift at times, but no way to change it really, but again, it’s a hobby, not a necessity, and you can choose to enjoy it with what you have, or focus on what everyone else has or is doing.
Honestly, I could moan all day about what should be more fair in life. It sucks. 
I do enjoy the conversation at times, and find the views and possible solutions interesting, the of insulting others, or belittling them, not so much.
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The ones I envy are those that don’t have to work or really do anything else during the day but focus on their riding and training. It has nothing to do with showing, just I would LOVE to be able to focus (or in some cases, just ride every day). I think the Amateur/Pro distinction has become somewhat meaningless. There are groups of open riders who don’t earn any money from training. Or pros that have not even qualified to earn their bronze medal. There is also this group of AAs who train our own horses. I do see some disparities with the way our local GMO is run–they separate learning opportunities for juniors, amateurs and pros and only the pros get the serious training opportunities (multi day, big names and closed clinics). As an amateur who trains my own horses, I would love to audit those clinics but they are closed. Yet, someone who wants to relinquish AA status, even if they don’t earn a dime from training and have not shown above intro level could attend. In my experience, the amateur clinics tend to focus more on riding skills than training horses. I have been pondering whether to give up my AA status just so that I can get better training opportunities. I think if we lose the distinctions between AA and Open at shows, and stop classifying people as amateurs, it might create a path for better training opportunities for advanced riders, especially for those who live in dressage sparse areas.
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That’s actually kind of sh***y of your GMO. Idk why the clinics can’t at least be audited?
When we have a clinician, whether big name or not here, sometimes they will specify it is a clinic aimed at “A” level, for example, or for “M” and up. Which is fine, that’s skill level, I understand that. Some clinics don’t have this and are mostly open. The last clinic I rode in (thanks Corona) was with Uta Gräf and we had riders from A, L, and M. Some riders had competed at S, but no S level horses at the moment. She was really relaxed about it all. I’ve not seen a “closed” clinic here. They might be somewhere, but not that I’ve encountered.
That kind of stuff, that your GMO is doing, doesn’t really help the sport IMO, or give a good learning environment. I think by skill level would be ok. If the clinic is for 3rd/4th I can understand why they wouldn’t want a 1st level rider to ride, but they could audit.
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There is not a rule out there that some people will not try to skirt. Period.
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Of course your placings are relative to how other horses perform, but your scores are not. If you got a 65 then you earned a 65. It doesn’t matter if the horse after you got a 70 or a 50. Your scores and your feedback are the same.
I’ve won classes on a crappy test simply because everyone else was having a worse day than I was. I’ve had the best ride of my life and come fourth, because others had better rides and nicer horses. There’s nothing unfair about the fact they beat me in the placings - they earned higher scores. I still got the highest score of my life and some great feedback to work on.
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