Amateur rule: where do you protest someone’s status?

[blue_heron]

Why would a rider at first not be able to attend? I would hope they would be able to audit, though the person above said they are closed to auditors. Is that because of COVID? Or are they always closed to auditors?

TBS, there is a local person around here who does so many clinics and brings so many horses to the PSG/GP and has a lot of AA clients. They’ve sort of made a brand for themselves, despite not being the best rider, IMO. They have resources, sponsors, and a pipeline of nice horses, plus tons of social media content. I rode out of their barn for a while, took lessons, and was not impressed, but others sure are. Their home barn is filled with their own horses and competent riders capable of the upper levels but I’ve audited their clinics at barns with mostly AA’s looking to have fun on their horse that they love but might not have all the $$ or time in the world and their horse doesn’t have the best gaits-- yikes! This person got on every AA’s horse, shoved it into a frame, and couldn’t teach an AA to get their horse forward or even somewhat round.

Can teach a horse the one tempis, yes, can teach an AA to ride, no. But can teach an UL to put tricks on a horse that already knows the fundamentals! My point in this is to say that some clinicians aren’t well suited for a certain demographic of riders, but it should be up to the rider to determine what they’ll get out of it. Why would the clinic be ‘closed’ to LL auditors/riders?

[CanteringCarrot]

Ah sorry, I should’ve said “ride” as they could audit. I’ll edit the post.

Some clinicians or even just for regular lessons around here, do sometimes specify who they will instruct. Some really may not be good with beginners, or simply might not want to instruct beginners or lower levels. It is their choice. I do know of a very capable (international judge) instructor who often prefers to help people with solid basics and his clinics often target lower level riders.

One of my previous trainers (who is great, only separated by distance now) only trained students at M/3rd level and above. Personal choice.

Do you think every clinic or every trainer should take on everyone, or all levels, as riders?

[SillyHorse]

@J-Lu

To be clear, after scribing for many years, all horses are compared to their peers. That is how the judge places horses. I’ve shown enough to know that my placement depends on the horses in the class, and not uncommonly, my comments on the score sheet depends on the horses in the class. I’ve scribed enough to know how this works.

I can’t figure out how this works. When the first horse comes into the ring, does the judge know how all the following rides will go so s/he knows what score to give the first horse? And the second one? And on and on until the class is over and all the rides are placed (according to the judge’s ESP) correctly? Or once the class is done, now that the judge has seen all the rides, does s/he go back and change scores to reflect the desired placings?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[cnm161]

That’s not entirely fair-- if order of go didn’t matter, why are the WEG and Olympics ride times run the way they are? Mostly, because judges are human and they anchor on what they see first. So if you’re the Dujardins or Werths of the world, you want them to leave points on the table for you 30 rides later. Unfortunate for the formerly 4th now 3rd rider on the team, but hey. You get to ride in the Olympics and that’s a pretty big deal.

Does that happen on the local or regional level? Probably not to that extent, although there are certainly some high-profile pairings; but what you can’t get away from is the natural tendency to anchor the scale based on what the judges see previously in the class-- kind of akin to polling bias. It’s not malicious. Just a human tendency.

[blue_heron]

Not really. If there’s a specific clinic that’s advertised as tightening up your third level test, the intro rider should not sign up and should not be encouraged to sign up. I’m saying the opposite. I think this trainer would be better off teaching UL riders to ride UL horses, but instead we are teaching AA’s at the LL to ride ineffectively. But if they want to spend $175 for 45 minutes and not learn much, that’s their prerogative. Everyone should be allowed to audit.

I’m glad that some very capable trainers are willing to work with LL riders. I rode a little Lipizzaner that was a beast to canter in a walk-trot lesson with Arthur Kottas and I think about what I learned in that lesson nearly every time I ride. Arthur Kottas for sure does not have to cater to the LL community, but I’m glad he did/does.

[SillyHorse]

@cnm161

if order of go didn’t matter, why are the WEG and Olympics ride times run the way they are? Mostly, because judges are human and they anchor on what they see first. So if you’re the Dujardins or Werths of the world, you want them to leave points on the table for you 30 rides later.

This is an entirely different circumstance and can’t be compared to the shows that are the subject of this thread --namely, AAs at USEF/USDF shows.

[cnm161]

@SillyHorse

This is an entirely different circumstance and can’t be compared to the shows that are the subject of this thread --namely, AAs at USEF/USDF shows.

Which I recognized and acknowledged in the 2nd paragraph of my post.

Anchoring is a thing. Obligatory wiki link:

Anchoring (cognitive bias)

So yeah, if the often-cited Suzie McPaidALot rides before you and your self-trained bootstraps-pulled horse (why it’s always that comparison I’ll never know), you may take a hit on your scores-- sometimes to the extent that “you should just ride against yourself/for your scores” can be come a punchline.

[SillyHorse]

@SillyHorse

This is an entirely different circumstance and can’t be compared to the shows that are the subject of this thread --namely, AAs at USEF/USDF shows.

@cnm161

Which I recognized and acknowledged in the 2nd paragraph of my post.

Then why did you bring it up as an argument against my post?

@cnm161

Anchoring is a thing. Obligatory wiki link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_(cognitive_bias)

Thanks, but I don’t need you to “school” me on “anchoring.” See above.

[cnm161]

@SillyHorse

Then why did you bring it up as an argument against my post?

Because:

@cnm161

So yeah, if the often-cited Suzie McPaidALot rides before you and your self-trained bootstraps-pulled horse (why it’s always that comparison I’ll never know), you may take a hit on your scores-- sometimes to the extent that “you should just ride against yourself/for your scores” can be come a punchline.

Which I provided as a rebuttal to your previous post which implied judges must have ESP to rank each horse according to their quality and/or must edit their scores so that the “right” pair comes on top.

Did not mean to come across as condescending (which does happen… known issue that I’m working on); instead, offered an alternative view that supports in some respects J-Lu’s scribing anecdotes. Although we like to think that dressage is hyper-rational and solely based on individual performance and merit, there are messy real-world factors that do influence our scores (namely, how good the pair ahead of you were).

[eightpondfarm]

@atlatl

Show me “an extremly rich AA who is steering a 100.000 Dollar horse through a TL test” and I’ll mail you a check for $100. I double dog dare you!

i think she meant a comma instead of a decimal…ie one-hundred thousand dollars vs one hundred dollars.

[eightpondfarm]

@CanteringCarrot

a very posh and exclusive stable with top (€€) dressage horses that are in full-on training programs, with pros/top trainers doing the majority of riding for the clients because I can’t afford it? No. Do they have an “advantage” technically, yes. But that’s life.

It might be Life, but is doesn’t sound very fulfilling to me. Where is the joy in this? The sense of personal accomplishment? A victory gotten this way sure wouldn’t feel very satisfying to me.

[atlatl]

@blue_heron

Why would a rider at first not be able to attend? I would hope they would be able to audit, though the person above said they are closed to auditors. Is that because of COVID? Or are they always closed to auditors?

Certain educational events are open to a subset of attendees, judges or people with certain scores at certain levels. I believe the rationale is based on the idea that there is limited space and spots should go to those with prerequisites met. Also, there have been some that surreptitiously video and post to social media so as usual, a few jerks muck things up for everyone.

[soloudinhere]

When in other countries, a decimal is often used instead of a comma. Manni01 is German and that is not an uncommon way to format numbers.

[eightpondfarm]

@blue_heron

Why would a rider at first not be able to attend? I would hope they would be able to audit, though the person above said they are closed to auditors. Is that because of COVID? Or are they always closed to auditors?

because " RHIP " ? or a means to nudge more folks out of the AA bucket and have less lopsided entries in their shows?

[atlatl]

@eightpondfarm

@atlatl

Show me “an extremly rich AA who is steering a 100.000 Dollar horse through a TL test” and I’ll mail you a check for $100. I double dog dare you!

i think she meant a comma instead of a decimal…ie one-hundred thousand dollars vs one hundred dollars.

Use of the comma and period in numbers is reversed in Europe from the US. I knew exactly what was meant. I’m just not offering a $100k reward

[eightpondfarm]

ahhh…just looked to me like you misunderstood her. Sorry i ‘schooled’ you.

[Libby2563]

@Manni01

@Libby2563

I don’t really have skin in this game (I’m not even a USDF member right now since I am focusing on eventing, and I’ve done GP anyway so without a time limit I’d be in the “open” class forever), but what about crafting and submitting a rule proposal for consideration by the USEF? Has an idea like this ever been formally considered?

Good luck with that…. This is similar to the task to make voting for Native Americans possible…

If I had been given one million chances to predict a response to my post, I still wouldn’t have guessed this one. COTH is truly amazing sometimes!!

[Manni01]

@Libby2563

If I had been given one million chances to predict a response to my post, I still wouldn’t have guessed this one. COTH is truly amazing sometimes!!

I am a bit shocked myself, but the more I think about it the more I believe the obstacles for both problems are about the same, although the Native Americans finally won after years of crusades through the courts …

[soloudinhere]

Uh, no, there is literally no comparison between being denied a constitutional right as the citizen of a country, and the “crusade” for amateur participants in a completely voluntary luxury sport pursuit.

[Manni01]

Tell me where the right to vote was denied??? They were able to vote if they presented an ID with an adress… So if they moved out of the reservation they would get this adress…
I think that’s the beauty of both problems. Both have this voluntary part in it… so part of the blame is moved to the people having problems with it…