Andrew McConnon horse abuse

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@trubandloki

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

We are talking about established 5* riders here. We are talking about them not being willing to step up and report abuse.

This person has said that they have stepped up and reported abuse. In that updated thing you shared, they explained how they have done that, more than once.

I don’t have enough fingers and toes to count the amount of times I’ve told someone at a horseshow to stop whacking or jerking on their horse.

I’ve been called a “mother fucking do gooder” to my face for speaking up to a professional who was mishandling his students horse in front of officials and everyone in warm up. Said officials told ME to not engage with him when he was getting in to my face calling me names.

Now, if I see something bad, I say something. Usually directly to the person, or alert an official (when I witnessed the top rider punching her horse in the face in warm up I turned around and marched up to the FEI steward in the ring and told him what happened.

With all due respect… I think you are still missing a key nuance.

It is one thing to confront another rider face to face at a show, or to walk up to an official and complain or report something in person that you witnessed (but stop short of submitting photos or videos or a written statement)…

It is a whole different ballgame to make a formal report with USEF (including documentation) about serious sustained abuse that could result in an actual suspension or ban, and be the effective end of someone’s career.

MCB listed a number of things that could and should result in suspensions… at least… but they are unwilling to make formal reports to USEF about these things.

Back to the AM case… let’s again take note of the fact that the anonymous reporter TRIED seeking out advice from officials and people in positions of authority at USEF about reporting this abuse … and was met with ambivalence.

Reading between the lines … MCB and others who compete at that level and know how politics work know that they will face repercussions if they make formal reports about abuse. So… it’s left to the “less important” people… like grooms… to do it.

That’s a serious problem.

[FitzE]

I’m qualified in the US and practicing US law abroad so, I think I got this, thanks.

What you’re saying doesn’t make sense at all. You’re saying the org is too scared to follow its own rules for fear of being sued. Do you see how that makes no sense? Why would they have rules if they had no intention to uphold them and there were no consequences for breaking them?

Also, honest question: what to you mean by 'if they did have of what [I] said? I said to do only one thing: uphold your organisations formation documents, rules and standards.

When you see the CoC has been broken, do your due diligence to make sure it’s the rider in question and then that’s quite easy and straightforward. Dear Mr. McConnon, based on the evidence attached here and the testimony of X witnesses, you have been found to have violated the code of conduct which you pledged to uphold when you applied for membership. As such, your membership is hereby revoked for violations of the code of conduct.

What do you mean by half of what I said when I said only one thing: evaluated for CoC violation and, if found, terminate membership. That’s just one thing.

[trubandloki]

@floppyammy

And I think what you and others are calling a “witch hunt” is the level of appalled most of us are, at both his actions and the response of the governing body. We are all seeking to understand how this could take place, for so long.

I will clarify again, though I think I have said it many times and you even quoted part of it. I do not think the investigation into Andrew McConnon is a witch hunt at all.
It is necessary and there should be serious repercussions.

When I use the witch hunt term I am talking about the tangent this is causing for the examples I gave that you say do not exist and is not happening.

I agree with this. Totally.

@floppyammy

There is a HUGE spectrum of difference between perpetuating the type of abuse AMC has dished out for over 10 years vs. no one should ever use a crop and horses should only be given kisses while they stand barefoot in a field.

But if you read carefully that is not how lots of people feel.

[Equibrit]

Five-star rider under investigation after ‘abusive behaviours’ caught on video...

[trubandloki]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@trubandloki

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

We are talking about established 5* riders here. We are talking about them not being willing to step up and report abuse.

This person has said that they have stepped up and reported abuse. In that updated thing you shared, they explained how they have done that, more than once.

I don’t have enough fingers and toes to count the amount of times I’ve told someone at a horseshow to stop whacking or jerking on their horse.

I’ve been called a “mother fucking do gooder” to my face for speaking up to a professional who was mishandling his students horse in front of officials and everyone in warm up. Said officials told ME to not engage with him when he was getting in to my face calling me names.

Now, if I see something bad, I say something. Usually directly to the person, or alert an official (when I witnessed the top rider punching her horse in the face in warm up I turned around and marched up to the FEI steward in the ring and told him what happened.

With all due respect… I think you are still missing a key nuance.

It is one thing to confront another rider face to face at a show, or to walk up to an official and complain or report something in person that you witnessed (but stop shorting f submitting photos or videos or a written statement)…

It is a whole different ballgame to make a formal report with USEF (including documentation) about serious sustained abuse that could result in an actual suspension or ban, and be the effective end of someone’s career.

MCB listed a number of things that could and should result in suspensions… at least… but they are unwilling to make formal reports to USEF about these things.

Back to the AM case… let’s again take note of the fact that the anonymous reporter TRIED seeking out advice from officials and people in positions of authority at USEF about reporting this abuse … and was met with ambivalence.

Reading between the lines … MCB and others who compete at that level and know how politics work know that they will face repercussions if they make formal reports about abuse. So… it’s left to the less important people… like grooms… to do it.

That’s a serious problem.

Isn’t reporting to the officials at a show reporting to the governing body?
Isn’t that what we are supposed to be doing, reporting to the officials at the show?

I also think it is unfair to say that doing something does not count.

I do not think I am missing the nuance, I am not agreeing with you.

I truly do not blame anyone at any level for not running to the governing body that has shown they do nothing when they tried to report it to the boots on the ground officials who showed them that they are not supporting them in that report.

It is not the fault of the person trying to report to the people in charge that the people in charge are telling them they will do nothing about it.

A person can only get slapped in the face (figuratively) while trying to do the right thing (reporting things at the show, where there are representatives of the governing body in charge to report to) before they quickly realize that reporting to anyone is not going to get them anywhere.

That is what needs to change, not villainizing someone to tried at some level and failed.

[Amberley]

It’s not going to happen over the weekend. They will dot all their I’s and cross all their T’s. If they treat this case any differently than others they will be sued instantly. And we all know they would be treating it differently to others, just based on the numerous reports on this thread where they handwaved abuse aside.

It’s going to take time for them to react. Possibly a long time. They are going to try very, very hard to get another organization to take on the burden of investigation and will state they are waiting on that outcome. Even if individuals working at USEF feel differently, that’s just how it works in the US. Is it counter productive? Yes in my opinion. Does it keep small orgs from being sued out of existence? A

Anyone who has actually been involved in organizational legal stuff in the US would know this. And it’s not unique to the US, in Germany everyone is advised to have E10M in liability insurance these days. In Ireland you can barely run a birthday party anymore without fear or being sued. In the UK you can be sued for libel and slander VERY easily and it happens all the time. Nothing is happening in 48 hours legally in 2024.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@trubandloki

Isn’t reporting to the officials at a show reporting to the governing body?
Isn’t that what we are supposed to be doing, reporting to the officials at the show?

No… it’s not quite the same thing.

Talking in person to an official at a show is actually different than sending a written complaint into USEF… which will result in them being forced to acknowledge receipt of, and do something with.

And it’s VERY VERY different when we are talking about making a complaint about a 5* rider who is actually representing USA Eventing abroad in competition, and who has a long term connection to the current Chef D’Equipe.

[Marigold]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

It is one thing to confront another rider face to face at a show, or to walk up to an official and complain or report something in person that you witnessed (but stop shorting f submitting photos or videos or a written statement)…

It is a whole different ballgame to make a formal report with USEF (including documentation) about serious sustained abuse that could result in an actual suspension or ban, and be the effective end of someone’s career.

MCB listed a number of things that could and should result in suspensions… at least… but they are unwilling to make formal reports to USEF about these things.

Back to the AM case… let’s again take note of the fact that the anonymous reporter TRIED seeking out advice from officials and people in positions of authority at USEF about reporting this abuse … and was met with ambivalence.

Reading between the lines … MCB and others who compete at that level and know how politics work know that they will face repercussions if they make formal reports about abuse. So… it’s left to the “less important” people… like grooms… to do it.

That’s a serious problem.

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Talking in person to an official at a show is actually different than sending a written complaint into USEF… which will result in them being forced to acknowledge receipt of, and do something with.

^^^^ this, 100%.

[jcc813]

Mental health aside (I think @Blugal addressed that well in their response), I do wonder what AM’s thinking was by not withdrawing from Burghley while knowing that the FEI was already a couple months into an investigation on him–with some pretty damning evidence–per the EN article.

I’m assuming he would have felt even more nervous once the CJD story broke and how quickly that was addressed. Did he just have so much ego thinking that his story would not come out before he got his big chance to compete? Maybe because the FEI had not sent him a formal communication he just assumed he’d be in the clear?

I guess at least this makes me have a fractional bit more respect for CDJ who agreed to/volunteered for a suspension thereby allowing GB to send someone else in her place.

[Blugal]

I am going to be vulnerable here. Many people know who I am, or could figure it out if they read my 20+ years of posts on COTH.

I went to be a working student with an Olympian when I was a teenager - back in the “good ol’ days” before cell phones and SafeSport, when it was ok to send a teenager to live with their coach hundreds of miles away. I experienced and witnessed a lot of abuse, but I was not allowed to use the landline phone or if I did, I was monitored. She was a classic abuser - first giving something like affection or praise, then abusing, then gaslighting, apologizing, and sucking the person back in with increased good things. Once when it got really bad, she “apologized” by offering me the ride on a former Advanced horse. What naive teenager isn’t going to jump at that opportunity?

Everyone in our eventing community knew of her abusive ways, had seen multiple kids/teens and horses abused by her over many years, and the top echelons of our governing body knew about her horse abuse and personality issues. It was an open secret - only one person in the community warned my parents - and was disregarded because “she’s been to the Olympics and I’ve never witnessed that!”

Nobody in a position of power did anything. My parents should have rescued me but they didn’t have the benefit of SafeSport training, and I thought some of the actions/“training” was normal (this person went to the Olympics, obviously I am the one who doesn’t know anything).
I certainly didn’t feel empowered to report anything - and even if I did, what would have happened? She knew exactly how to run someone out of our sport and community.

Fast forward to the time when she kicked me off the farm with only the clothes on my back, my purse and my vehicle. It was brutal. She threatened my & others’ physical safety (literally running them off the road), the health and safety of the horses, and my career. I was in an extremely poor mental space, as anyone who narrowly escapes an ongoing abusive situation can be - no self-worth, insomniac, suicidal ideations. My therapist’s recommendation was to cut her out of my life completely. This meant, no lawsuit to recover my possessions or horses, no “revenge”, no reporting her behaviour, etc. because all that would mean was continued entanglement, and re-living the abuse over and over when having to be interviewed, go through all the he said/she said BS etc. Besides, everyone who was in a position to do anything about her actions, already knew, and didn’t do anything.

Fast forward to today. She no longer competes, no longer rides, is not a member of any organization that could do anything. She still owns horses. She still lives in the same community as I do. Why would I report her now? I don’t have photos or video. I feel ashamed that I haven’t reported her, but I also need to protect my mental health. I’m guessing I’m going to get some replies to this post saying that if I don’t, I’m condoning abuse and I am doing the wrong thing - fine. If you can’t put yourself in my shoes, I’m happy that you’ve never experienced what it’s like.

[FitzE]

@Amberley

t’s not going to happen over the weekend. They will dot all their I’s and cross all their T’s

That’s fine. Though it’s been the better part of a week, not over a weekend. I practiced law in the US for 5 years, the UK for 2, in Asia now over a decade. How could you possibly think I don’t get this? (And what in blue blazes are you talking about re: birthday parties in Ireland? We can’t go 2 km without seeing an elaborate massive bouncy castle set up on someone’s lawn each weekend.)

Your assessment is correct: they are trying to shield themselves but kicking it down the road to the FEI. But that still doesn’t cover that fact that they are failing to uphold their own standards and rules. They have to answer for that, too. You don’t get to set up and org and sign everyone on to rules and then simply abdicate your responsibility to enforce those rules as you see fit or b/c your scared. That in itself is something you CAN get sued for, actually.

ETA:

@Amberley

Anyone who has actually been involved in organizational legal stuff in the US would know this.

I have actually been involved in organisational legal stuff in the US and under US law for 20+ years. Have you? Honest question. Have you been involved in organisational legal work in the US?

[phoenixrises]

Can we the members do anything legally as they aren’t holding these rules up? Can something be filed in a court to make them respond on the record?

[FitzE]

I need to read the full document. I’ve seen the CoC but I have to see the part where it spells out consequences of violating the CoC. Is there a link where a nonmember can see the full constitutional/membership docs?

[phoenixrises]

I’ll work on getting them. Would you mind messaging me your email (if you’re ok with that) and I’ll get them too you. Or I can send you a google doc if you’d prefer

https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/kcjRTgU9fI8/code-of-conduct

Can you get to that?

[Amberley]

@FitzE

I have actually been involved in organisational legal stuff in the US and under US law for 20+ years. Have you? Honest question. Have you been involved in organisational legal work in the US?

Yes, I deal with liability issues every day and have for decades. Your approach is certainly unlike any attorney I have every dealt with and frankly it seems completely unreasonable to hold a small underfunded non-profit’s feet to the fire over not carrying out a full on investigation in less than a week over something they legally have no involvement in (it did not happen at an event). Especially as you are now stating you haven’t actually read the CoC. I have read it, I suggest you do too, then look at their financials and their actual organizational documents. This is hardly the first time this kind of thing has come up, some of us have done our due diligence long ago.

The issue here is the other horse people who keep sending him horses and taking lessons with him. The officials at events who let stuff slide. The people who “know” and say nothing. Not the people working at USEF HQ who are not police or investigators and who certainly aren’t on call 24/7 to go out sleuthing. USEF clearly needs to hugely revamp their reporting system, that they can fix. They can tighten up their rules regarding penalties (again needs to be voted on by the members, 90% of whom do not vote). They can strengthen their ties to investigative agencies. Those are reasonable asks.

[Moderator_1]

We removed some recent posts pertaining to an unrelated interpersonal issue between two posters apparently on another platform. Please take it to PM if you want to discuss it further.

[DownYonder]

@FitzE - first of all, I will say - there are attorneys and then there are attorneys. Same as there are judges, and then there are judges (If you get my drift).

Secondly, you do make a very good point. Why does USEF not enforce its own Code of Conduct regarding cases like this? Are they afraid the organization will be sued? Do the legal people truly believe that USEF does not have the legal standing to make something like that stick? And it makes me wonder - has USEF ever expelled a member because of abuse?

[DMK]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

It’s unclear WHO at USEF determined they couldn’t act on the report and had to just punt it to the FEI.

This issue of jurisdiction over events that happen outside of competition is not some random question that just popped up. It’s an issue that has been reviewed by USEF for a while and culminated in an extraordinary rule change. Until the USEF rule is in effect and a case is submitted that can be validated as happening after the rule is effective, it’s understood that the FEI is the only one with rules in place to prosecute infractions. Also, this does mean it’s still a free world for all non FEI members of USEF, but hey at least it’s not a local show org with absolutely no budget, enforcement personnel or really, any rules of consequence, so there’s that…

As a side note I suspect part of the reason the FEI is so slow on moving this forward (aside from the fact that the FEI isn’t speedy about anything) is that they got caught flat footed by a deluge of issues being reported in the wake of Helgstrand and CDJ and are woefully understaffed with qualified personnel. Just because we haven’t heard about it doesn’t mean that other countries/disciplines aren’t sending in reports as well. It’s not excusing their slow response time, they should have reasonably been prepared for this, but nevertheless it takes time to hire and train people to properly research and document these cases.

[DownYonder]

@trubandloki

Isn’t reporting to the officials at a show reporting to the governing body?
Isn’t that what we are supposed to be doing, reporting to the officials at the show?

Yes. And I have had a TD tell me, “Well, I didn’t see it happen so I can’t do anything about it. But if you want to pursue it, you will have to go through official channels to file a complaint. It will cost you $200 to file, and I will tell you up front, nothing will be done unless you have photographic or video evidence and/or other people also come forward with the same complaint.”

[phoenixrises]

I don’t understand why you are saying less than a week? They were notified in May and punted to the FEI?