Animal Cruelty Allegations - Cumberland Riding Academy, Hendersonville, TN

[Malda]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;8124600]
you always have the a-hole somewhere.

But this isn’t a proposition where you simply hang out your shingle, it is a profession with a 3 year schooling period to become a journeyman, and several more years to become a certified master.

Yes, you still can hang out your shingle, but it’s not done often.[/QUOTE]

This is good to hear. It’s not just passing a couple of tests and getting certified. My husband is from Austria and took lessons for a couple of years as a kid. What he remembers is pretty solid.

Unfortunately, I think the U.S. is too big to do something like that. Would have to be state wide, and I think too many people would object.

[BaroquePony]

I think it might be able to be done through universities or colleges or combining that with certain farms or instructors.

Could be unified through the internet.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=Malda;8124723]
This is good to hear. It’s not just passing a couple of tests and getting certified. My husband is from Austria and took lessons for a couple of years as a kid. What he remembers is pretty solid.

Unfortunately, I think the U.S. is too big to do something like that. Would have to be state wide, and I think too many people would object.[/QUOTE]

It isn’t the size of the country, it’s the mind set.
There are equine programs at various colleges, you have farrier school (again, European professionals would laugh at 6 month classes…again we are talking years!)

It’s a co-op program in Europe, you learn in school as well as hands on.

[BaroquePony]

Or, just set things up using farms that are willing to participate.

[BaroquePony]

Working students … farms need help … clinics

[BaroquePony]

Look at how much $$ has been spent getting Parelli Levels …

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;8124775]
Or, just set things up using farms that are willing to participate.[/QUOTE]

@BaroquePony;8124778

Working students … farms need help … clinics

@BaroquePony;8124779

Look at how much $$ has been spent getting Parelli Levels …

Working student is the closest you come to apprenticeship.

The majority don’t want to do the work (Parelli levels, that’s play!), spend oodles of hours not in the saddle, but back in the barn, learning, and THEN you add oodles of saddle time.

It isn’t that the farms need help. It’s that they are unwilling (or unable) to educate the help.
There is too much of the indset going around ‘I’m not putting the work in for somebody else to reap the benefit’
And that is all abound in the industry.

There is also too much hush-hush going on, don’t rock the boat, don’t call out the crooks, don’t make waves, play nice.

Unless the public is willing to learn from other (countries) there won’t be a reasonable change, not at the base.
Liability concerns have effectively gutted the base.

[BaroquePony]

Alagirl, I agree with what your saying and I think it’s relatively accurate.

On the other hand, I think the US needs to completely rethink it’s approach to how this entire country runs (or doesn’t) so that we can develop all kinds of constructive programs. It’s a mess right now.

[Guilherme]

It’s not the “mindset” out of context; it’s the economics that drive the “mindset.”

The hard truth is that unless you’ve tried to make money in a non-elite equine facility you likely don’t understand the difficulties owners face. This is one of the last bastions of true capitalism. While there are few “consumer protections” so are there few “subsidies.” About the biggest one might be property tax relief as an equestrian facility often qualifies as “green space” and gets a tax break. But in some high-tax states that option is not available.

In Europe the equestrians sports are far more the province of the very rich and/or very titled. Europeans also live under a much more restrictive set of economic and social rules than Americans. We’re not them and they’re not us.

If a horseowner shops for boarding like they shop for low prices at Amazon and Walmart then they are a major part of the problem. If there is a mindset that drives a “race to the bottom” then this is it.

G.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8124915]
It’s not the “mindset” out of context; it’s the economics that drive the “mindset.”

The hard truth is that unless you’ve tried to make money in a non-elite equine facility you likely don’t understand the difficulties owners face. This is one of the last bastions of true capitalism. While there are few “consumer protections” so are there few “subsidies.” About the biggest one might be property tax relief as an equestrian facility often qualifies as “green space” and gets a tax break. But in some high-tax states that option is not available.

In Europe the equestrians sports are far more the province of the very rich and/or very titled. Europeans also live under a much more restrictive set of economic and social rules than Americans. We’re not them and they’re not us.

If a horseowner shops for boarding like they shop for low prices at Amazon and Walmart then they are a major part of the problem. If there is a mindset that drives a “race to the bottom” then this is it.

G.[/QUOTE]

you are wrong in just about every aspect.

[Synthesis]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8124915]
It’s not the “mindset” out of context; it’s the economics that drive the “mindset.”

The hard truth is that unless you’ve tried to make money in a non-elite equine facility you likely don’t understand the difficulties owners face. This is one of the last bastions of true capitalism. While there are few “consumer protections” so are there few “subsidies.” About the biggest one might be property tax relief as an equestrian facility often qualifies as “green space” and gets a tax break. But in some high-tax states that option is not available.

In Europe the equestrians sports are far more the province of the very rich and/or very titled. Europeans also live under a much more restrictive set of economic and social rules than Americans. We’re not them and they’re not us.

If a horseowner shops for boarding like they shop for low prices at Amazon and Walmart then they are a major part of the problem. If there is a mindset that drives a “race to the bottom” then this is it.

G.[/QUOTE]
There is a lot of truth here.
In North America, the trainer with the biggest name (re winning students/competition record/fan club) reaps the economic rewards. For good or for ill, we like to hitch our wagon to a star if we can afford to do so.

I’m in Canada. In the lower levels of the industry, certification adds little economic benefit and can actually be a cost center to maintain instead of a revenue enhancer. The entry to mid-level public is rarely willing to pay a premium for a certified instructor vs uncertified instructor. There are often insurance deductions for certified instructors but the ROI on cost of certification vs insurance premiums is extremely poor. Factor in the cost of ongoing qualifying hours to maintain certification and you have a non-existent ROI.

The benefits of certification come down to:
-personal satisfaction
-marketing (which may get people in the door IF there is no $ difference between your program and the uncertified program)
-coaching participation in certain competitions programs (example Head coach for a team participating in the Interprovincial Championships)

That’s it.

I believe in education. I do TONS of ongoing education work. I go to clinics to audit specifically to tune my eye to what the clinician is fixing and why. I watch videos of the best, read a ton. I analyse the snot out of my students and work with 6 + month plans in mind. Students get worked on riding and theory all the time.

I’m not certified and sadly, of all the instructors AND clinicians I’ve worked with over the years, only one of them has been. I would LOVE to be an advocate of certification but haven’t yet seen a NA example that is a consistent benefit to provider OR consumer

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8123735]
The following is relevant. It’s the TN Statute on Animal Cruelty:

[I]39-14-202. Cruelty to animals.

(a) A person commits an offense who intentionally or knowingly:

 (1)  Tortures, maims or grossly overworks an animal;

 (2)  Fails unreasonably to provide necessary food, water, care or shelter for an animal in the person's custody;

 (3)  Abandons unreasonably an animal in the person's custody;

 (4)  Transports or confines an animal in a cruel manner; or

 (5)  Inflicts burns, cuts, lacerations, or other injuries or pain, by any method, including blistering compounds, to the legs or hooves of horses in order to make them sore for any purpose including, but not limited to, competition in horse shows and similar events.

[/I]

The video depicts really bad training. It does not, IMO, meet the requirements of the statute. From the video I doubt there were any physical injuries to the horse. It was certainly not “maimed.”

The barn owner may be a complete putz but is under no obligation to “cooperate” with the sheriff.

The video might support a search warrant and it might not. That will depend on the judge.

The barn owner is doing what politicians sometimes do when caught “with their pants down” and is blaming everybody but the person who administered the whipping. It’s all part of a vast conspiracy, don’t you know.

There are no circumstances I can envision under which I would ever board a horse at this place, take a lesson there, or enter a contract to train a horse there. That does not mean they are criminals. It does mean I consider them monstrously inept.

Put another way, what the law can’t do maybe the market can.

G.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm… what part of whipping a horse in the face is ‘training’?

[Just_My_02]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8124915]
It’s not the “mindset” out of context; it’s the economics that drive the “mindset.”

The hard truth is that unless you’ve tried to make money in a non-elite equine facility you likely don’t understand the difficulties owners face. This is one of the last bastions of true capitalism. While there are few “consumer protections” so are there few “subsidies.” About the biggest one might be property tax relief as an equestrian facility often qualifies as “green space” and gets a tax break. But in some high-tax states that option is not available.

In Europe the equestrians sports are far more the province of the very rich and/or very titled. Europeans also live under a much more restrictive set of economic and social rules than Americans. We’re not them and they’re not us.

If a horseowner shops for boarding like they shop for low prices at Amazon and Walmart then they are a major part of the problem. If there is a mindset that drives a “race to the bottom” then this is it.

G.[/QUOTE]

A factor is the pricing of backyard barn boarding where the owner just wants to subsidize his cost of owning horses by offering an artificially low price that would be impossible if the owner had to live on the profit from the business.

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=Just My $.02;8125071]
A factor is the pricing of backyard barn boarding where the owner just wants to subsidize his cost of owning horses by offering an artificially low price that would be impossible if the owner had to live on the profit from the business.[/QUOTE]

This is very true, the worst barns I boarded at were those run by someone who had 20 stalls, 10 of which housed their own animals for whom they paid $0 board.
Oh and they hired low wage people to do the stalls/feed/etc.

I wonder what part of this barns issues stem from cost cutting measures towards more profit for owner or support of owners own horses?

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;8125097]
This is very true, the worst barns I boarded at were those run by someone who had 20 stalls, 10 of which housed their own animals for whom they paid $0 board.
Oh and they hired low wage people to do the stalls/feed/etc.

I wonder what part of this barns issues stem from cost cutting measures towards more profit for owner or support of owners own horses?[/QUOTE]

The whole of the industry isn’t treated as a business or worthy (and important) economical venture.
It’s a woman’s past time and traditionally, if it’s not done by a guy, it’s considered hobby, not really worth the trouble.

Other countries acknowledge the agricultural impact (no geldings in their Derbies!) and treat it accordingly. But then again, there are more men involved in the industry…

And they are not so eager to pave over the country.

[rustbreeches]

Admittedly, it is rainy and overcast, so my brain is a bit foggy, but why is the gender of the participants relevant? Please use small words since my brain seems to be not firing on all cylinders.

[Synthesis]

[QUOTE=rustbreeches;8125146]
Admittedly, it is rainy and overcast, so my brain is a bit foggy, but why is the gender of the participants relevant? Please use small words since my brain seems to be not firing on all cylinders.[/QUOTE]

LOL
No, I get the argument.
In Europe, there is a much higher percentage of men involved due to the long-standing horses as agriculture industry. Being horsemen, like cattlemen, is seen as a ‘real’ occupation.

In North America, the english horse industry is perceived as primarily women or at least feminine. As a result, the whole industry is externally perceived as a ‘hobby’ industry from the breeding of sporthorses (pretty horses) to clothing (focus on marketing as fashion as opposed to athletic) to competition (its not a ‘real’ sport)

Contrast with the racing industry (the sport of kings) western riding and polo which are overwhelmingly populated by men and still remain tough for women to break into. Breeding/raising/training racehorses is seen as an investment (often a poor one) and participation in a major sport. Riding western is ‘manly’ due to history of frontier (men), cattle-driving/cowboy culture (men) and rodeo (men). Polo is a contact sport (manly) and historically the domain of VERY rich men.

The bias is quite real, and affects spending patterns significantly. Families often spend similar sums on football and hockey for boys without flinching but think twice in riding. The problem is that we are so immersed in the atmosphere that is unnoticed.

[rustbreeches]

Gotcha, thank you for explaining.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;8125067]
Hmmm… what part of whipping a horse in the face is ‘training’?[/QUOTE]

I don’t understand your question. I never said that “whipping a horse in the face” is training; you did. I said the video depicts really bad training and it does.

G.

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8125518]
I don’t understand your question. I never said that “whipping a horse in the face” is training; you did. I said the video depicts really bad training and it does.

G.[/QUOTE]

the video depicts someone hitting a horse in the face.
That is not training, bad or otherwise.
There is no natural response to hitting a horse in the face that would get a desirable result, such that it could ever be construed as ‘training’… therefore there is no reason to hit one in the face, other than to be abusive.