[QUOTE=Guilherme;8125518]
I don’t understand your question. I never said that “whipping a horse in the face” is training; you did. I said the video depicts really bad training and it does.
G.[/QUOTE]
I think the point Angela is trying to make is that she does not feel it is simply bad training, it is abuse.
Training does not include whipping the horse in the face so this can not be bad training.
[QUOTE=trubandloki;8125561]
I think the point Angela is trying to make is that she does not feel it is simply bad training, it is abuse.
Training does not include whipping the horse in the face so this can not be bad training.[/QUOTE]
Then if that’s her point she should say it. Not try some left-handed, artsy-cutsy snide remark.
Of course, if somebody hits a horse in the face with a crop is that “animal cruelty” under the statute? Those demanding criminal action have to show that the conduct in the video met the statutory criteria. That’s why I posted the statutory language.
G.
Unless section 5 refers in its entirety exclusively to soring (I might have not highlighted “correctly”), I’d say that trainer was inflicting pain.
And yes, I believe the owner is required to cooperate with an official law enforcement investigation.
I still have the numbers for over 25 municipal, county and state police agencies in my phone from when I was an investigator. I was an equine humane organization, so no one was required to talk to me.
I was once along on a case, staying in the background, just to see how two new investigators handled themselves (quite nicely, all things considered). The owner went on and on about how he built this county | don’t you know who I am | what’s the moisture content of hay, don’t know that do you | get the hell off my property or I’m calling the sheriff!
At that point I stepped forward and said very calmly “Super! I have the sheriff’s department on my speed dial. How many units would you like dispatch to send out, and would you like them to respond with lights, sirens, or both?” (blinks innocently) “They fight over who gets to respond when I call in for assistance; the last time ended up involving the DEA!”
All of a sudden, he couldn’t have been more polite or helpful. 
And as we were preparing to leave, he grudgingly said “What’s that story, about flies and honey?” :winkgrin: Yes, sir, you have a good evening, sir.
Besides, if you make the sheriff get subpoenas and everything, they are going to be extremely thorough and she’s likely to lose at least 24 hours revenue of cancelled lessons, if not 48, with squads parked everywhere, all sorts of cops milling about at the barn and throughout town, interviewing anyone who ever set foot on the property in the last 5 years (or as long as trainer has been there) + her farrier(s), vet(s), chiropractor(s), equine dentist(s), handyman, and every 12-to-17 year old girl in a three county radius who ever went along to watch her friend’s lesson, once, four years ago . . . .
Bad news. 
[URL=“http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/sheriff-animal-abuse-investigation-closed-after-cumberland-riding-academy-incident.aspx”]Sheriff: Animal Abuse Investigation Closed after Cumberland Riding Academy Incident
From the article:
Sgt. Sean Ryan, with the department’s Animal Control Division, was the lead investigator. He tells Rate My Horse PRO, “despite the red flags, there are certain guidelines we have to follow.” Crucial to law enforcement is evidence, some of which may have been lost due to a lag in the filing of complaints. “Time is of the essence in these cases,” Sgt Ryan says. “The video was taken a week prior.”
Cumberland Riding Academy’s horsemanship and business practices have been scrutinized since the video hit the internet last week. Sgt. Ryan says, “the farm will be put on notice to change their training methods. Any future events many not be met with the same end as this one.”
I hope everyone in the community keeps the pressure on them-- I know I will. It’s important to make sure this story is out there on social media so that customers who do their research can find out what type of trainer their students are learning from. The barn owner, if you haven’t noticed, has a habit of deleting any negative comments on their FB page and flagging any negative reviews left on internet websites. But luckily, she can’t delete stories in the press.
Bad news.
[URL=“http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/sheriff-animal-abuse-investigation-closed-after-cumberland-riding-academy-incident.aspx”]Sheriff: Animal Abuse Investigation Closed after Cumberland Riding Academy Incident
From the article:
Sgt. Sean Ryan, with the department’s Animal Control Division, was the lead investigator. He tells Rate My Horse PRO, “despite the red flags, there are certain guidelines we have to follow.” Crucial to law enforcement is evidence, some of which may have been lost due to a lag in the filing of complaints. “Time is of the essence in these cases,” Sgt Ryan says. “The video was taken a week prior.”
Cumberland Riding Academy’s horsemanship and business practices have been scrutinized since the video hit the internet last week. Sgt. Ryan says, “the farm will be put on notice to change their training methods. Any future events many not be met with the same end as this one.”
I hope everyone in the community keeps the pressure on them-- I know I will. It’s important to make sure this story is out there on social media so that customers who do their research can find out what type of trainer their students are learning from. The barn owner, if you haven’t noticed, has a habit of deleting any negative comments on their FB page and flagging any negative reviews left on internet websites. But luckily, she can’t delete stories in the press.
[QUOTE=Texarkana;8125905]
Bad news.
[URL=“http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/sheriff-animal-abuse-investigation-closed-after-cumberland-riding-academy-incident.aspx”]Sheriff: Animal Abuse Investigation Closed after Cumberland Riding Academy Incident
From the article:
I hope everyone in the community keeps the pressure on them-- I know I will. It’s important to make sure this story is out there on social media so that customers who do their research can find out what type of trainer their students are learning from. The barn owner, if you haven’t noticed, has a habit of deleting any negative comments on their FB page and flagging any negative reviews left on internet websites. But luckily, she can’t delete stories in the press.[/QUOTE]
well, you didn’t think it would go far, did you.
Unless horses are racks of bones, on top of piles of dead ones, with gross looking injuries and diseases…ignorant training methods aren’t really prosecutable.
And be glad they are not, because, well, we all would be in court at some point or another.
However, in the spirit of things, should people bother to google the barn, this thread will pop up.
Alagirl, I unfortunately knew it wouldn’t go far. But, I was hopeful AC might be able to do something with such compelling video evidence.
At least the video evidence will never go away. Now I hope the market does their part. I have heard through the grapevine that many of the parents had not pulled their children yet because they had pre-purchased “lesson packages.” I truly hope that they still decide to place their children elsewhere after this incident, even if there were no charges filed.
Last line from the rate my horse pro article:
Stay with us as we will have more from this story in the coming days.
Is that a promise?
I hope these parents have checked out the profiles of people tied to barns who commented (before deleted) on facebook - big & small - and learned that how these two run a barn isn’t how its done. This message board isn’t a collection of idiots other. Big name breeders, trainers, riders, judges, vets, show organizers, as well as people who have decades and decades of experience. I hope they’ve seen OP’s pics from her time there and realize how they run there barn isn’t proper care. Of course, they noticed that everything has been scrubbed top-to-bottom in the past week, as it should be done every week.
The owner has 10 years in the tack with no prior experience with horses. The trainer’s resume questionable at best, as people have tried to validate the claims she made in records and can’t do so. Obviously if their clients can read and half a brain they’ll realize that her “training” methods are questionable, too.
And if that owner threatened to sue me on my way out the door, I’d give her my attorney’s name and tell her to pound bleeping sand.
[QUOTE=Alagirl;8125909]
well, you didn’t think it would go far, did you.
Unless horses are racks of bones, on top of piles of dead ones, with gross looking injuries and diseases…ignorant training methods aren’t really prosecutable.
And be glad they are not, because, well, we all would be in court at some point or another.
However, in the spirit of things, should people bother to google the barn, this thread will pop up.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t, as I didn’t see the criminal activity. It would appear the sheriff’s eyes are as good as mine.
The statute sets out the rules and the case law fills out those rules. THAT is what the sheriff (and the DA) must follow. There was insufficient evidence to support a prosecution.
If there is any good news it’s that the place is now under more scrutiny. If viable allegations of criminal behavior surface they will likely be acted upon quickly.
G.
I understand that legally there isn’t much that can be done from a law enforcement perspective, but I am hopeful that this “trainer” might at least be banned or suspended from any local or national governing competition bodies, since she appears to be a hunter/jumper trainer. Certainly she cannot be a member in good standing of any organization with this video forever viewable on youtube.
[QUOTE=VTMorgan06;8126162]
I understand that legally there isn’t much that can be done from a law enforcement perspective, but I am hopeful that this “trainer” might at least be banned or suspended from any local or national governing competition bodies, since she appears to be a hunter/jumper trainer. Certainly she cannot be a member in good standing of any organization with this video forever viewable on youtube.[/QUOTE]
I’m repeating this secondhand, but the folks who orchestrated the anonymous FB page also said they contacted the Middle Tennessee H/J Association and USEF.
According to them, neither organization approved, but both said they cannot ban the trainer based on the video alone when it did not happen on the show grounds.
Very disappointing. But hopefully thanks to the exposure, people will be watching the trainer very closely now.
I just feel terrible for the school horses. Allegedly this type of abuse is a regular occurrence with Kim Smith at the helm of the program. Maybe this incident will scare her into changing her ways, but I’m not betting on it. You can’t control what goes on behind closed doors and I don’t know if the released video will make students more or less afraid to speak up.
[QUOTE=Texarkana;8125914]
Alagirl, I unfortunately knew it wouldn’t go far. But, I was hopeful AC might be able to do something with such compelling video evidence.
At least the video evidence will never go away. Now I hope the market does their part. I have heard through the grapevine that many of the parents had not pulled their children yet because they had pre-purchased “lesson packages.” I truly hope that they still decide to place their children elsewhere after this incident, even if there were no charges filed.[/QUOTE]
You know that people throw tons of money at Parelli, with similar ridiculous footage - which they took themselves of snatching horses in the face, slapping a one eyed horse in the face, etc, right!
Yes, I understand where you are coming from, but the best weapon you have is - with this video, the evidence - to not keep silent.
[QUOTE=Texarkana;8126183]
I’m repeating this secondhand, but the folks who orchestrated the anonymous FB page also said they contacted the Middle Tennessee H/J Association and USEF.
According to them, neither organization approved, but both said they cannot ban the trainer based on the video alone when it did not happen on the show grounds.
Very disappointing. But hopefully thanks to the exposure, people will be watching the trainer very closely now.[/QUOTE]
Anyone who goes to local shows want to just kind of ‘hang out’ in the stabling and warm up areas with a phone camera recording? 
Very disappointing news. Hopefully people will talk with their money and leave.
[QUOTE=kdow;8126321]
Anyone who goes to local shows want to just kind of ‘hang out’ in the stabling and warm up areas with a phone camera recording? :P[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding? I guarantee you CRA will be at all the shows with Kim Smith smooching and petting and loving on all the horses, particularly Cowboy.
[QUOTE=Texarkana;8126183]
I’m repeating this secondhand, but the folks who orchestrated the anonymous FB page also said they contacted the Middle Tennessee H/J Association and USEF.
According to them, neither organization approved, but both said they cannot ban the trainer based on the video alone when it did not happen on the show grounds.
Very disappointing. But hopefully thanks to the exposure, people will be watching the trainer very closely now.
I just feel terrible for the school horses. Allegedly this type of abuse is a regular occurrence with Kim Smith at the helm of the program. Maybe this incident will scare her into changing her ways, but I’m not betting on it. You can’t control what goes on behind closed doors and I don’t know if the released video will make students more or less afraid to speak up.[/QUOTE]
It begs the question, ‘So, how bad does one have to beat a horse before you do something, before it’s ‘bad enough’?’
Education is key to making sure the public knows what to look for and what to look out for when exploring places to ride… but how do you reach the population that is outside the organizations that could assist?
If I am looking for karate lessons, I ask around, look around… I don’t look at whatever org. oversees Karate. And I know better! But I still wouldn’t…
How does that change?
I did hear they’re finally only putting 2 horses together in the small padlocks/pastors at a time. Unlike in the past before the video there would be 20 Or more at A time and all you saw was them fighting with no food, when you drove by. Or maybe a lot of horses have left.
I don’t know, but I sort of understand where the organizations are coming from. If you can get someone “banned” from competition based on a single video filmed elsewhere, can you imagine the potential for back-stabbing?
Don’t like your competitors? Just have someone follow them around with a cell phone and wait for them to end up in a compromised position. Even the best of horsemen might do something that could reflect poorly upon them when taken out of context. We’re all human.
I think if there had been criminal charges filed, the organizations could have/would have done something. I hope they will not hesitate to take action if Kim Smith ever steps out of line on the show grounds.
Their schedule claims they will be showing this weekend in Memphis. Curious if that’s current.
[QUOTE=Angela Freda;8126579]
It begs the question, ‘So, how bad does one have to beat a horse before you do something, before it’s ‘bad enough’?’
Education is key to making sure the public knows what to look for and what to look out for when exploring places to ride… but how do you reach the population that is outside the organizations that could assist?
If I am looking for karate lessons, I ask around, look around… I don’t look at whatever org. oversees Karate. And I know better! But I still wouldn’t…
How does that change?[/QUOTE]
Most organizations “jurisdiction” applies only to show grounds. If they occurred at a show, I’m sure they could initiate an investigation based on a protest. They do not have jurisdiction on things that occur off of the grounds of approved events, unless there is a court of law conviction or disciplinary action from another organization. Its a slippery slope.
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