Barisone Criminal Case Update

[Angela_Freda]

Indeed, past threads on this case has offered research on these issues that persons who have not read those will gave missed. And then we repeat the info…

[MorganSercu]

@Angela_Freda

There’s also the issues of permits and the potential requirement of contractors being licensed.

In New Jersey the contractor has to be licensed.

[Angela_Freda]

That was my understanding, as well as the person claiming to have done the work in the house at SGF was not licensed.

[Knights_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Knights_Mom

Houses often get vacate orders when basements are converted and there’s only one point of egress. Those are immediate fire department evictions. It’s my understanding that the main house had modifications especially in the basement which would put an immediate vacate order to part or all of the house.

Excellent post, KM.

Re the renovations, the work could have been excellent of shoddy, and the scope of the work could have been consistent with the building code or in violation of the building code.

These are two very different aspects of construction.

If the work was done beautifully, but the work violated the building code,the building inspectors would order that living space vacated. If the work was subpar and sloppy but the project satisfied the building code, I really doubt the building inspectors care (unless, say, a window didn’t open because it had been painted over and functionally could not be used for egress).

There were multiple living spaces in the house and in the barn. The job of the building inspectors is to order vacated all living spaces that were not up to code.

It is possible that the apartment LK and RG were living in was not subject to a vacate order. Since it was LK or RG who called the building inspectors, it seems likely that they did so knowing the code violations applied to other living spaces but not theirs.

The catch being it was RG who did contracting work there. He is not licensed in NJ.

So I have to assume that the inspectors went to the house, saw issues there and also issued vacate orders for all or part of the house.

Now did the inspectors task MB with getting people to leave, a thing normally handled with police assistance by whatever agency issued the order? If so, that might be an issue.

[Graymaresrule]

@eggbutt

Wow.

Full moon Dec 19-20

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Angela_Freda

There’s also the issues of permits and the potential requirement of contractors being licensed.

True. It appears RG was not a licensed contractor.

But building inspectors inspect. How can they tell from a visual inspection of the space whether it was done by a licensed or unlicensed contractor or by the homeowner themselves?

Now if permits had not been pulled, I can imagine them issuing a vacate order. But again, that’s a code issue, not a quality of the work issue.

If permits had been pulled, does it have to be a licensed contractor that pulls the permits, or can the homeowner apply for permits? I don’t know what the rules are in NJ (or for my own state!)

[Angela_Freda]

@CurrentlyHorseless

But building inspectors inspect. How can they tell from a visual inspection of the space whether it was done by a licensed or unlicensed contractor or by the homeowner themselves

The permit?
Admission from the unlicensed person who did the work?
Poor quality or work clearly not to code?

Work not inspected at the required stages… ??
For example: When building my house wiring had to be inspected before drywall went up, for obvious reasons.

If the owner is a group of people, which of those several persons is acceptable to seek a permit?

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Angela_Freda

@CurrentlyHorseless

It is possible that the apartment LK and RG were living in was not subject to a vacate order. Since it was LK or RG who called the building inspectors, it seems likely that they did so knowing the code violations applied to other living spaces but not theirs

That perhaps being true, once the inspector inspects, there’s no telling what they find, and how much more might be a problem, beyond the original issue.

Very true. Once the inspectors come inspecting, they’re likely to find all sorts of other stuff.

[Knights_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Angela_Freda

There’s also the issues of permits and the potential requirement of contractors being licensed.

True. It appears RG was not a licensed contractor.

But building inspectors inspect. How can they tell from a visual inspection of the space whether it was done by a licensed or unlicensed contractor or by the homeowner themselves?

Now if permits had not been pulled, I can imagine them issuing a vacate order. But again, that’s a code issue, not a quality of the work issue.

If permits had been pulled, does it have to be a licensed contractor that pulls the permits, or can the homeowner apply for permits? I don’t know what the rules are in NJ (or for my own state!)

No idea what was found. Don’t know what was admitted or explained at the time.

Code issues and quality of work issues are both reported.

[rothmpp]

@Knights_Mom

Houses often get vacate orders when basements are converted and there’s only one point of egress. Those are immediate fire department evictions. It’s my understanding that the main house had modifications especially in the basement which would put an immediate vacate order to part or all of the house.

The other thing that just occurred to me was that the zoning of that particular township/lot may not have allowed for a) multiple residences in a building approved as a single family residence and/or b) living spaces in a barn.

People will sometimes do a conversion that makes a house into multiple residences without permits, and then find out that it is not allowed without a variance in their location. If someone reports the house, it gets inspected, and is found to be in violation, they then have to either convert it back or try to get approval after the fact. That is often cost prohibitive, opening up walls to show wiring and plumbing, fire suppression between residences, etc…

Many areas also specifically prohibit residences in a barn. My county does without a variance. I boarded at a barn for a while that had a residence attached to the barn - the only residence on the property. They had to purchase property on a specific side of the road they were looking at, as it was the border between counties. The other side of the road specifically forbid residences inside barns.

Not to say this is the case with the property in question in this case, as I am not familiar at all with zoning in that area, it’s just a possibility.

[MorganSercu]

It’s funny but in the original collected stories it took 3 tries to lose Hansel & Gretel in the woods. First time Hansel dropped pebbles so they could get home to their parents (originally no stepmother), the second night was lentil or millet seeds that sprouted during the day and the third time to rid themselves of the kids Hansel had breadcrumbs.

And of course Hansel was caged & fattened up to be eaten. They got around that by his sticking a twig out instead of his finger (the old woman had bad vision).

Good reading for the kids. Life can be hard, capricious and downright cruel.

[Angela_Freda]

@rothmpp

People will sometimes do a conversion that makes a house into multiple residences without permits, and then find out that it is not allowed without a variance in their location. If someone reports the house, it gets inspected, and is found to be in violation, they then have to either convert it back or try to get approval after the fact. That is often cost prohibitive, opening up walls to show wiring and plumbing, fire suppression between residences, etc…

In my area minutes from variance meetings are available online

[MorganSercu]

Building permits too? In my area you can find those online as well.

[Sdel]

@CurrentlyHorseless

But building inspectors inspect. How can they tell from a visual inspection of the space whether it was done by a licensed or unlicensed contractor or by the homeowner themselves?

Well, they were there twice that day. So, it must be that in the morning they inspected and then went back to the office and researched the “permits” before they came back that afternoon.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Angela_Freda

@CurrentlyHorseless

But building inspectors inspect. How can they tell from a visual inspection of the space whether it was done by a licensed or unlicensed contractor or by the homeowner themselves

The permit?
Admission from the unlicensed person who did the work?
Poor quality or work clearly not to code?

Work not inspected at the required stages… ??
For example: When building my house wiring had to be inspected before drywall went up, for obvious reasons.

If the owner is a group of people, which of those several persons is acceptable to seek a permit?

If you’ve built a house, you know a lot more about this than I do.

If there was no permit, I agree that’s a problem. My main point is that I think inspectors and Fire Marshall care much more about permits and the work being up to code than about whether the drywall seams show and finish carpentry is neatly done.

Did you apply for the permits as the homeowner, or did you have your contractor apply for the permits?

[Angela_Freda]

Yes, I’m not sure online but you can look them up in person.
Towns in my school district are very small and not really up to speed on technology, alas. I wonder about this NJ town.

[MHM]

@Sdel

@CurrentlyHorseless

But building inspectors inspect. How can they tell from a visual inspection of the space whether it was done by a licensed or unlicensed contractor or by the homeowner themselves?

Well, they were there twice that day. So, it must be that in the morning they inspected and then went back to the office and researched the “permits” before they came back that afternoon.

Wait, I’ve lost track. Which day were the building inspectors there twice?

[Sdel]

@MHM

Wait, I’ve lost track. Which day were the building inspectors there twice?

8/6. Day before the shooting.

On August 6, 2019, at or about 13:00 hours, WASHINGTON TOWNSHIP descended upon the Farm with a line ofofficial vehicles and township actors.

On August 6, 2019, at or about 17:00 p.m., WASHINGTON TOWNSHIP again descended upon the Farm with a line ofofficial vehicles and township actors.

So, I guess it was afternoon technically….but they came, they inspected then they went and probably researched permits before coming back…

[Angela_Freda]

@CurrentlyHorseless

whether the drywall seams show and finish carpentry is neatly done.

The term “Quality of work” certainly could cover much more than drywall seams.

For the house, it was our contractor who got the permit, for the finishing work to our bonus space that we did mostly ourselves, we acquired that permit.
Both were required to be displayed prominently.
For the house, the permit was staked at the edge of the lot.
For the bonus space, it was attached to a window visible from the driveway.

They also expire, if work isn’t completed before they do… I’m assuming they need to be applied for again, and the work completed at that stage might be subject to thorough inspection

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Knights_Mom

Houses often get vacate orders when basements are converted and there’s only one point of egress. Those are immediate fire department evictions. It’s my understanding that the main house had modifications especially in the basement which would put an immediate vacate order to part or all of the house.

Excellent post, KM.

Re the renovations, the work could have been excellent of shoddy, and the scope of the work could have been consistent with the building code or in violation of the building code.

These are two very different aspects of construction.

If the work was done beautifully, but the work violated the building code,the building inspectors would order that living space vacated. If the work was subpar and sloppy but the project satisfied the building code, I really doubt the building inspectors care (unless, say, a window didn’t open because it had been painted over and functionally could not be used for egress).

There were multiple living spaces in the house and in the barn. The job of the building inspectors is to order vacated all living spaces that were not up to code.

It is possible that the apartment LK and RG were living in was not subject to a vacate order. Since it was LK or RG who called the building inspectors, it seems likely that they did so knowing the code violations applied to other living spaces but not theirs.

The catch being it was RG who did contracting work there. He is not licensed in NJ.

So I have to assume that the inspectors went to the house, saw issues there and also issued vacate orders for all or part of the house.

Now did the inspectors task MB with getting people to leave, a thing normally handled with police assistance by whatever agency issued the order? If so, that might be an issue.

I think everyone agrees that in NJ pretty much all renovation work, including really mundane, unskilled stuff like painting, is supposed to be done by a licensed contractor. It also appears that RG was unlicensed.

Obviously the inspectors “found issues” when they inspected. I’m just saying I think the nature of the issues that would trigger a vacate order would be 1. Work done without a permit, or 2. Renovations that violated the building code.

I don’t think the building inspectors would care if the paint and carpentry was sloppy, and I don’t see how they can determine from an inspection whether the work was done by a licensed or licensed contractor. Whether the work was sloppy vs excellent and whether RG was licensed bs unlicensed I think are irrelevant to the various living spaces being issued vacate orders.