So who do you think it is?
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So you are simply guessing what the ear witness might have said?
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Huh?
I’m speculating on what the ear witness might have heard, based on my belief that the broad outlines of LKs narrative are true.
Who cares what the ear witness said?
Ciao, Eggbutt.
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I could hit the silhouette but it wasn’t always center of mass. I hated them too. My second shot was almost straight down then I learned to concentrate. The only thing I hated worse than firing it was cleaning it. Had a spring in there that would take your nails off.
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I fired the 45 and M16A1.
As you wish!
Coincidentally, I was called to jury duty here in Florin so I’m sorely out of touch with the latest discussions here. I do not envy the good people of New Jersey who will be put, metaphorically, “to the pain” in evaluating the details of the Barisone case.
As for my identity, I can assure those who are suspicious that I am not someone otherwise posting regularly on the thread. I am merely a farm boy (and occasional buccaneer) who caught wind of these threads when a swashbuckling friend followed his lust for vengeance all the way to a horse forum, of all places. We have giants and ROUSes in Florin, but not trolls I’m afraid, so I’ll stay out of the conversation about who’s here to stir the pot. I’m merely here to encourage Inigo to get back on the wagon. And, as a good farm boy, to serve and entertain the equestrians of this forum.
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Sorry, but you were emphatic about what the ear witness heard. Nothing has been published regarding the ear witness and I care what they said and where you got your information. If your post was a figment of your imagination, say so.
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Huh?
I used the words “speculating” and “might have heard”.
Ciao.
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Re: 3PonyFarm (great name btw!) from my perspective as a psychologist, not guilty by reason of insanity pleas remain very rare. I’ve only ever been asked to assess clients considering that plea on a handful of occasions (less than ten) and I’ve done hundreds of forensic evaluations. Gay/Trans panic and black rage are not concepts that me or any of my colleagues would support and I know the former is now banned in many states.
Many states have a “two pronged” insanity defense, which means, in most basic terms, that a defendant may be found not guilty by reason of insanity due to not recognizing their action was wrong OR due to “irresistible impulse.” NJ has a more stringent statute that only allows for the first clause, from my brief reading.
Not guilty by reason of insanity is a bit of a risky plea, from the perspective of the attorneys I’ve worked with, as even if successful, the defendant now may be civilly committed, and that civil commitment may end up as a much longer period of time than what they would have served for the crime with which they were charged. If unsuccessful (and therefore convicted of a crime which results in incarceration), but clearly living with impairing mental illness (which can happen, there are many people with major mental illness incarcerated who were not able to use that illness as a successful defense) people are typically placed in medical wards while incarcerated and not amongst the general population.
Re: some of the additional speculation, from my professional opinion, a TBI occurring at the time of the event would not meet criteria for an NGI plea. Altered consciousness, reduced cognitive functioning, etc., would not be sufficient for such a plea in my experience.
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Thank you! Trying to explain that two shots to the chest are usually considered a killshot is really a challenge. You would think using a historical term even used in movies would get through somehow.
What did your husband say when he heard MB shot her twice in the chest? Something like “good shooting!” Or “he wasn’t playing around.”
Guns goes off when people wrestle for them.
Ear witness is probably Jonathan Kanarek who I believe LK was on phone with. If so, a dad may say whatever his family wants him to.
Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable and I bet ear witnesses moreso.
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No, I wasn’t Jonathan Kanarek. Someone called him and told him that she had been shot. Not sure if it was the lawyer that called him. JK said: “. . .her lawyer got a call saying that she had been shot.” It’s call #2 9-1-1 August 7 on this page.
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Of course guns go off when people wrestle for them, but if that happened here, why would MB be charged with attempted murder and be pleading not guilty by way of insanity and/or self defense, instead of some sort of accidental discharge type charge/defense?
I have no idea who was on the phone with LK when this all went down so I’ll wait for the trial to find out how important that one is, and no matter who it is, if he/she takes the stand, I will assume the truth will be told by this person and everyone who provides sworn testimony. The question about eye witness testimony is in this case is a bit odd since there were really no eye witnesses at all - the only people there were the two victims and the accused.
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The “irresistible impulse” description interests me. I’ve met two people (both men) that said they literally saw red when they were angry and had been struck in the head. Both dealt with anger issues but said they were usually able to control physical actions. When being hit in the head while they were already angry would lead to a loss of memory. From what they said it would only last seconds to a few minutes. In that time they pretty much destroyed everything within their reach.
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In regards to how an insanity defense is supported, the defense usually leans heavily on expert testimony. In my work as an expert witness, I will meet not only with the client to conduct a psychological evaluation, but will also speak to those close to them, medical providers, employers, and others with relevant information as well to corroborate their report, build timelines, etc. It is possible some of those sources may be called as well, to testify independently.
If you look at cases of successful NGI pleas, like Andrea Yates, the case for her mental illness was made through expert testimony as well as her husband, who spoke of her mental state, both historically and on the day of the crime. In that case, the mental illness which engendered the delusions which led her to perceive that her actions were appropriate was well established (it had been identified in years past after previous pregnancies)and is a condition known to cause delusional beliefs (postpartum psychosis).
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The irresistible impulse test requires the presence of a mental illness and that said mental illness results in the “irresistible impulse”. Sometimes it is described as an impulse that would be acted upon even if a police officer was standing at your shoulder. If a client reported behavior or events like those you are describing, I could see an attorney suggesting an evaluation to see if that was a viable defense option. Not all states allow for this defense, however, and I do not believe New Jersey allows it.
It’s also my understanding that it is generally a less successful NGI plea, although my role isn’t to advise legal strategy. From a purely speculative perspective, I could see a jury being more sympathetic to the idea that one was so divorced from reality they did not understand the wrongness of their actions rather than an inability to control their actions, but I don’t know if this is actually why it’s a less successful avenue.
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Thank you for your reply! It is going to be interesting to follow the progress of this trial for sure.
There was a somewhat recent insanity case brought before the same judge in this case (Taylor). It was a one day bench trial for David Lopez who stabbed someone 100 times saying they were the devil. He was found not guilty by reason of insanity and is being held at the Ann Klein Forensic Center. I think he is supposed to go before a judge periodically for updates on his condition.
That is the type of case I think of for a valid insanity defense but im no expert.
Thanks again for your input! It makes it interesting when there are experts who can add to the discussion.
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Because you and others keep forgetting that the only person the police spoke with, and whose story they ran with is RG’s. Rob controlled the entire narrative from the second the police pulled up until they left the hospital. Period. Barisone had significant head and face trauma, a broken left arm and a severe concussion.
I personally believe if Heymer had not arrived when he did, RG would have actually killed Barisone and screamed self defense. I believe Barisone went to his house, there were words exchanged, LK attacked him beating him with her phone as RG came out of the house and joined the fight. The first shots hit LK almost point blank because she was still pummeling MB, reaching up to hit him in the head. She went down, RG and the dog continue the fight, with RG trying to get the gun. RG pulled MB’s clothing, eventually pulling his shirt off and took him down and that’s when the 3rd shot was fired that went into the house, which fits the trajectory of an upward shot. RG continued the beating until Heymer arrived and RG announced they “have it all on tape”.
Prove me wrong.
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I just looked that case up, how terribly sad for everyone involved. 
I would agree that’s an appropriate use of the NGI plea though.
I noticed that reports on that case said the prosecutor did not challenge the expert’s findings - I think that’s what happens in a significant amount of successful NGI pleas, that ultimately both prosecution and defense agree and it is not even brought before a jury.
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Easy. He has no memory of what happened so therefore he cannot aid in his defense. So he has to plead that way.
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