Barisone Verdict Is In: Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity

[ekat]

First let me say I’m sorry for the loss of your friend, and sorry you and their family still don’t have answers. That’s a horrible place to be.

There’s been a lot of good legal info from @lazaret and @Knights_Mom, and probably others I’ve forgotten as well, but I thank you for including me with some great posters and their comments.

I love the law. I love the processes. I love the puzzle-solving aspects. I love watching attorneys in courtroom action, But I also agree with you that it’s a shame that “True Crime” has become an entertainment genre. It trivializes the real live humans that are caught up in their single worst nightmare, one they can’t wake up from. And quite frankly, it frustrates me that there are so little educational aspects brought into most of the tv shows. I get that the legal field is huge. And in the US, there’s 50 states, with multitudes of counties, cities and other local laws. I still some of those shows would be better served if they included a basic primer on at least one legal aspect of any given case rather than going straight for the shock value.

The thing that bugs me still about this case is that I can’t put the puzzle together. We have a verdict, but I still cannot comprehend why this situation devolved so badly and so rapidly, devastating a whole lot of people in the process. (And I still have my doubts as to how the shooting itself occurred, but that’s just me.) Maybe there will be more clues in the civil trial. And maybe the only thing we can learn from this is when any relationship is falling apart as badly as this one was, somebody needs to just get out.

[cutter99]

@Fiesta01

I’m sitting here thinking about the “bombshell” that didn’t happen. LK and, I believe, one of her Facebook friends said that there was a recording of an alleged murder plot involving MB, MHG and RC. LK stated this, and the friend said she had heard the recording.

Two questions for our legal types -

• Assuming a recording like this actually exists, would this recording, even though probably done illegally, be admissible in court? I thought I read somewhere that even if a recording is illegal, if it documents the planning of a crime which is then actually carried out, it would be admissible. Is this possible?

• Could this supposed recording be admissible in a civil case if it had already been deemed inadmissible in a criminal case?

I think if it actually exists it was one of these situations-

1. an altered recording.

2. an ambiguous conversation that LK attempted to twist the narrative of.

3. an illegally recorded conversation where someone made a poor joke about “getting rid of her” because tensions were running that high.

[KurPlexed]

A bit off topic but thought this group may appreciate this short mash up of the Depp trial

I hope the link works

[MHM]

@FitzE

No sympathy, though, as he’s a grown man who can change that situation any time he wants. If being a kept man, manservant, laundryman, groom, gofer is living his best life, so be it.

I’ve never really understood the groom aspect of it.

Weren’t the horses on full board and training with MB? How much grooming would LK’s boyfriend actually have to do? Other than maybe wrapping the horse with cellulitis after hours if the regular help did not want to do that at the end of the day.

Was he the one feeding them breakfast every morning and doing barn chores for those horses?

[CindyB59]

Meh…I don’t think you’re the only one with doubts as to what really happened.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@see_u_at_x

I haven’t done a full-on research project of the family because I don’t have the time, but from what little I’ve gleaned, I’d estimate them to “only” be worth between $1-$5M.

I’m willing to bet that the interior of that house has probably undergone some very nice updates which were probably not cheap. Raising three daughters, putting at least two of them through private high school and college (I’m only guessing here), and paying for their weddings (again, guessing), couldn’t have been cheap, either. The younger daughters have done well for themselves and have both married men who appear to be successful. So, that possibly leaves quite a bit of income these days to help fund their eldest daughter’s…lifestyle.

I COMPLETELY agree.

But… this is precisely why I have been pushing back on the trust fund narratives.

Estate taxes kick in when the value of someone’s estate is $12 million or more. The family home in NJ is slightly north of $1 million. Is it possible that these folks paid for the other daughter’s educations, weddings, etc, plus LK’s $530,000 house in Florida, plus all of her horses, and still socked away so much over the course of 30 years, that their estate is well over $12 million, and they had enough extra to set up trust funds for each daughter? It’s possible. But… if you assume that the beneficiaries (LK and her sisters) are only getting distributions of income from their trusts each year… and if you take a guess as to LKs annual expenses in Fl with 6 horses in full board, and training with Ulf Moller… you gotta figure the theoretical trust has income producing assets in it that are valued somewhere north of $2 million.

Soooo… if you assume that parents in this situation set up trust for each of 3 children, with a goal of reducing their estate to a value just under $12 million (to avoid estate taxes)…

That means their net worth would theoretically have been $18 million or more just a few years ago.

I don’t know the people- maybe they are exceptionally savvy careful investors, and live beneath their means, and they accomplished this. And if so - seriously- good for them. But if they were really worth a full $18 million just a few years ago… I think JK would have more public info out there on Google about his professional bio and accomplishments.

Hope that makes sense. You’re the one who apparently does this sort of estimating for a living. I’m an amateur sleuth

When I talked about the tax advantages of setting up trusts, I wasn’t talking about reducing the size of the estate to escape estate taxes.

Suppose the parental generation had total assets of $11 million - the million dollar house plus $10 million in income producing real estate and our equities. The $10 million in income producing assets would generate a lot of taxable income, and the parents would be in a very high tax bracket. I’m assuming NJ has a high state income tax rate, plus federal.

Instead of holding the assets directly, losing 50% to state and federal income taxes, and supporting an adult child out of after tax income, by placing a couple million in a trust, the income from the trust would be taxed at the tax rate of the trust beneficiary, which is presumably a lower tax rate.

There may be other advantages as well — the capital gains are not taxed unless the assets are sold, and when the heir actually inherits the assets, the cost basis is the value of the assets at the time of the grantor’s death — so capital gains tax is avoided altogether.

So, even if the total wealth is below the point where the estate tax kicks in, I think there are considerable tax advantages to putting assets into trusts for your eventual heirs. Also, the point at which the estate tax kicks in changes drastically from year to year, depending on which party is in power in Congress; not that long ago not kicked in at about $5 million.

[MHM]

@Fiesta01

I’m sitting here thinking about the “bombshell” that didn’t happen. LK and, I believe, one of her Facebook friends said that there was a recording of an alleged murder plot involving MB, MHG and RC. LK stated this, and the friend said she had heard the recording.

Here’s my question for you.

Why would you believe for one second that there was even a tiny grain of truth to the story? Even before LK testified under oath on the witness stand that she lies a lot on social media?

I have not looked at her social media other than the posts that have been shared here. But it sounds like she has a few Facebook friends of her ilk who would probably swear to anything to support her stories.

[LilRanger]

@MHM

Why would you believe for one second that there was even a tiny grain of truth to the story?

Because the best lies have a bit of truth in them.

[Ambitious_Kate]

@CurrentlyHorseless

It’s clear to me that you have access to someone in Barisone’s inner circle. First, you had access to the letter from jail. Second, at one point you stated that CPS was contacted by SS, and asserted that CPS had definitely not been contacted by the police. That information – that CPS had been contacted by SS — was not in the public record at that time, to my knowledge.

I don’t know who your contact in the inner circle was, but I do think you have one. With the information that Lara Osborne was the one who closed up the operation and put things in storage after the shooting, and is now MBs partner, my guess is that she was the recipient of the letter from jail, and she would have the inside info on his defense.

So what? Its none of your business. If Eggbutt was nice enough to share what she knows and explain a little about her associations, so be it. Its none of your business to speculate about it. And what does it mean to you? What do you care who she knows?

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Fiesta01

I’m sitting here thinking about the “bombshell” that didn’t happen. LK and, I believe, one of her Facebook friends said that there was a recording of an alleged murder plot involving MB, MHG and RC. LK stated this, and the friend said she had heard the recording.

Two questions for our legal types -

• Assuming a recording like this actually exists, would this recording, even though probably done illegally, be admissible in court? I thought I read somewhere that even if a recording is illegal, if it documents the planning of a crime which is then actually carried out, it would be admissible. Is this possible?

• Could this supposed recording be admissible in a civil case if it had already been deemed inadmissible in a criminal case?

I remember the FB post by the friend, and the statement was very incoherent. Some people interpreted it as saying the friend had heard the recordings, but it was sufficiently muddled that it could be interpreted in other ways as well.

I have read that in some states, the laws on recording private conversations specifically says that recorded conversations that would otherwise be illegal are not illegal if the person doing the recording had a valid reason to think a crime was being discussed. In other states, there is no specific exemption in the law, but prosecutorial discretion might be used to decline to prosecute in such a case.

As I remember it, it had to do with the illegality of
the recordings, rather than admissibility, but it seems that admissibility/inadmissability would be related to legality/illegality.

The recordings were not used in the criminal trial, but I am not aware of a hearing in which they were deemed inadmissible.

[eggbutt]

@Ambitious_Kate

@CurrentlyHorseless

It’s clear to me that you have access to someone in Barisone’s inner circle. First, you had access to the letter from jail. Second, at one point you stated that CPS was contacted by SS, and asserted that CPS had definitely not been contacted by the police. That information – that CPS had been contacted by SS — was not in the public record at that time, to my knowledge.

I don’t know who your contact in the inner circle was, but I do think you have one. With the information that Lara Osborne was the one who closed up the operation and put things in storage after the shooting, and is now MBs partner, my guess is that she was the recipient of the letter from jail, and she would have the inside info on his defense.

So what? Its none of your business. If Eggbutt was nice enough to share what she knows and explain a little about her associations, so be it. Its none of your business to speculate about it. And what does it mean to you? What do you care who she knows?

I have CH muted and on ignore and can’t see their post. Whatever they may have posted is irrelevant to anything…I owe this person absolutely nothing.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Ambitious_Kate

@CurrentlyHorseless

It’s clear to me that you have access to someone in Barisone’s inner circle. First, you had access to the letter from jail. Second, at one point you stated that CPS was contacted by SS, and asserted that CPS had definitely not been contacted by the police. That information – that CPS had been contacted by SS — was not in the public record at that time, to my knowledge.

I don’t know who your contact in the inner circle was, but I do think you have one. With the information that Lara Osborne was the one who closed up the operation and put things in storage after the shooting, and is now MBs partner, my guess is that she was the recipient of the letter from jail, and she would have the inside info on his defense.

So what? Its none of your business. If Eggbutt was nice enough to share what she knows and explain a little about her associations, so be it. Its none of your business to speculate about it. And what does it mean to you? What do you care who she knows?

My impression is that her source was somewhat miffed with Eggbutt for dropping more information than the source wanted disclosed.

[skydy]

Thank you for the kind words. My friend was murdered when we were in Junior High school, so it was a very long time ago. Her parents are gone now, at least their suffering is over.

[ekat]

[/quote]

The recordings were not used in the criminal trial, but I am not aware of a hearing in which they were deemed inadmissible.
[/quote]

There was an evidentiary hearing a couple weeks before the trial. Typically, those hearings aren’t public, and most of the time go completely unnoticed by anyone that wasn’t there.

On Day 2 of RG’s testimony, before they bring him in, there’s a lot of discussion of the clip they are going to play from one of the recordings, going so far as to try to play it on the court’s sound system, but it was so distorted that Judge T told Mr B to use the transcript first. (Note: the distortion was due to the sound system they were using). RG, upon questioning, admitted to the conversation based on the transcript so I don’t think think they every played the tape in front of the jury.

[BigMama1]

@CurrentlyHorseless

My impression is that her source was somewhat miffed with Eggbutt for dropping more information than the source wanted disclosed.

Unless you also personally know her “source” how would you know that and why would it be relevant here?

[Ambitious_Kate]

@BigMama1

Unless you also personally know her “source” how would you know that and why would it be relevant here?

It isn’t. she just wants to sound like she too is “in the know” and not get left out of being significant to nothing.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@ekat

The recordings were not used in the criminal trial, but I am not aware of a hearing in which they were deemed inadmissible.
[/quote]

There was an evidentiary hearing a couple weeks before the trial. Typically, those hearings aren’t public, and most of the time go completely unnoticed by anyone that wasn’t there.

On Day 2 of RG’s testimony, before they bring him in, there’s a lot of discussion of the clip they are going to play from one of the recordings, going so far as to try to play it on the court’s sound system, but it was so distorted that Judge T told Mr B to use the transcript first. (Note: the distortion was due to the sound system they were using). RG, upon questioning, admitted to the conversation so I don’t think think they every played the tape in front of the jury.
[/quote]

Well, but that would have been a tape of RG, LK, JK and another lawyer, wouldn’t it? A recording captured by the device planted by RG.

Did the prosecution attempt to get the recordings of MB, MHG, etc introduced? My understanding was that the attempted murder charge didn’t require premeditation or evidence of a “plot”; instead all that was required was intent to kill, or knowledge that shooting her twice in the chest was likely to result in death, so the prosecution didn’t “need” the recording of a murder plot. Despite what KM will reflexively say, the prosecution proved the elements of its case that he shut her, so I don’t think playing the recording of the discussion of the murder plot (if it exists) would have changed the verdict. If he was delusional when he got the gun and drove over there, he was delusional a couple days before when the recording was made.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@BigMama1

@CurrentlyHorseless

My impression is that her source was somewhat miffed with Eggbutt for dropping more information than the source wanted disclosed.

Unless you also personally know her “source” how would you know that and why would it be relevant here?

Did you see Eggbutt’s post? It looked like damage control to me.

[eggbutt]

Apparently he is in charge of grooming the horses, tacking them up, untacking, hosing off or bathing, etc. From what I understand she walks out to a mounting block, mounts while he heads the horse, she rides, unmounts, and he takes the horse away. He must also hold her horses while being shod. The only thing she does apparently is gives treats and takes photos late at night, per her sm posts, rides a bit and takes a nap before heading home. It doesn’t sound like an FEI goal oriented routine IMO. That said, it’s her business entirely and how RG responds to her demands is not our concern.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Ambitious_Kate

@BigMama1

Unless you also personally know her “source” how would you know that and why would it be relevant here?

It isn’t. she just wants to sound like she too is “in the know” and not get left out of being significant to nothing.

LOL. Eggbutt and others have accused me of being an insider, or failing that, being fed by an insider.

I’m not. I’m not an insider and I’m more than happy being a nobody.