Barisone Verdict Is In: Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity

[roseymare]

@Ambitious_Kate

Yes, much better to call the fire marshall about a faulty dryer than to unplug it.

So if he was enough of an electrician to hardwire the smoke detectors he surely could have unplugged a dryer or FLIP THE BREAKER. I obviously don’t know the codes where they are at but I cannot imagine not have a 220 dryer on its own breaker or having one hard wired is up to code (yes I’ve seen that) if smoke detectors are required to be hardwired. You would think the inspector would have noted that. But then again he let them stay via email.

[DownYonder]

@roseymare

You would think the inspector would have noted that. But then again he let them stay via email.

And was it ever verified when those photos or video were shot (the images they sent to the FI to inform him that the devices had been reinstalled)? Did the FI testify that he had seen a timestamp on the images? Or could they have sent him OLD photos of the pre-existing alarms?

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@ekat

@Ambitious_Kate

But what if she claims she was on the path to a professional career

That path is still going to include missed trainings, scratched competitions, etc. It’s hard to prove you had a serious path to anything when actual records show you didn’t actually take it serious enough to show up.

Maybe she’s going to push a mental anguish claim over her loss of a dream of a riding career?

If she was an 18 or 19 year old young person, I would be more persuaded over this theoretical loss a dream of pursuing a career/hobby/athletic endeavor at a higher level.

But she’s in her 40’s now. And a recovering drug addict.

There are many wonderful adult ammy riders in their 40’s. But… the older you get, the more hard work and discipline are required if you actually want to successfully compete. I’ve heard of some adult ammy folks who are SUPER athletic via other endeavors (triathlons, distance running, etc ) being successful if they ride 100% in lessons 3 days a week, and have very well schooled horses, that are in full training when they aren’t ridden by the owner. And that’s great - more power to people who can juggle multiple intense athletic hobbies, and are willing to pay top dollar to keep the horse going well, and pursue a realistic path to competition success with their horse.

But LK has addiction issues. She wasn’t on the sort of disciplined, multi sport athlete path I described, making it all work. And she’s now in her early 40’s. It is what it is. And it is not, what it is not.

[DownYonder]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

…more power to people who can juggle multiple intense athletic hobbies, and are willing to pay top dollar to keep the horse going well, and pursue a realistic path to competition success with their horse.

But LK has addiction issues. She wasn’t on the sort of disciplined, multi sport athlete path I described, making it all work. And she’s now in her early 40’s. It is what it is. And it is not, what it is not.

It seems that the most intense hobby she had that involved any physical exertion was typing furiously on social media.

[Ambitious_Kate]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

And a recovering drug addict.

I wouldn’t make assumptions.

(italics mine)

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Good point

[cutter99]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@roseymare

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

We are pleased to announce Jane Doe has committed to attend Middle America University, and will be continuing her softball career there in 2022.”

This is common around here as well. Maybe it is regional. I don’t find the use of career in these instances unusual at all.

Well… here’s the definition of the word, according to Merriam-Webster:

career

1 : a profession for which one trains and which is undertaken as a permanent calling
a career in medicine
-often used before another noun
a career diplomat

2 : a field for or pursuit of consecutive progressive achievement especially in public, professional, or business life
Washington’s career as a soldier

Soooo… I could see the high school/college athlete trendy use of the word fitting into the 2nd definition. But here’s the thing. There are people who do actually pursue a full career as an athlete. They are professionals. LK doesn’t have a professional riding career. She’s literally an adult amateur. The kids I mentioned in my earlier post? Two are involved in college sports for which there isn’t a professional next step. College is it. And they’re playing at the D3 level. No scholarships involved. It just seems odd to me to use the word “career” in that context. Pretentious.

Why not instead just say, “We are pleased to announce Jane Doe has committed to attend Middle America University, and will be playing softball there in 2022.” It’s not like Jane is coaching the team at Middle America University, or working in the athletic department at the school. She’s literally just playing softball while a student at the school. It’s certainly a significant accomplishment to get picked up as a college athlete. But to call it a ‘career’ ?

I thought LK is making a claim of lost income in the civil suit. I might be wrong- would not be the first time- but that is my recollection!

[LiberalSnowflake]

@Sdel

@eggbutt

It could be Ulf/Helgstrand kept them at arm’s length and have always dealt with them 100% straight business only with no uncertain terms. Of course she isn’t on Helgstrand property either.

I wonder if it was really just COVID that kept her from following him back to Europe….

If she’s got such an extensive criminal record, there’s a fair chance she either

1. wouldn’t be able to get a passport
2. wouldn’t be able to get into a bunch of other countries.

[LiberalSnowflake]

@Sdel

Remember the 7 minutes……LK made a post here about how it took between 5 and 7 minutes for a lung to collapse……

I’m sure I remember RG being specifically asked on the stand “did you choke him out?” and answering “yes, I choked him out”. I could be totally wrong, but I thought “choke him out” was such odd language to hear in a court room.

[ekat]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Maybe she’s going to push a mental anguish claim over her loss of a dram of a riding career

Her civil suit alleges intentional inflection of emotional distress, which is basically what you’re saying. But IIED is a high bar to cross. And, NJ does have those contributory and comparative negligence laws, which Mr D cited in MB’s answer and counter claim.

How much did LK’s own actions contribute to her injury, including the emotional distress?

Who has a better claim for IIED? LK, or MB who was actually the “bastard” in the “finish the bastard” plot?

Anyone can sue anybody and allege just about anything. But, as opposed to a criminal case, the burden is on the plaintiff to prove their loss, the proximate cause of their loss, and the damages. In doing so, they open themselves up to all those prior bad acts etc. that weren’t allowed into evidence in the criminal trial. On the flip side, LK’s team is also going to present any speck of dirt they think they have on MB.

There’s going to be a lot of nastiness thrown about. But I’m guessing what sticks to the wall isn’t going to favor LK, the barefoot ninja, in the civil suit any more than it did in the criminal trial.

[LiberalSnowflake]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@roseymare

The English language is constantly changing and also regional dialects exist. This phrase has been used the way you are saying is “wrong” in my area for as long as I can remember. It is not pretentious in my neck of the woods at all.

Well what do you think of LK describing herself as having a “riding career” ?

I think it’s puffery.

So glad to see someone else using the term “puffery”.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@ekat

Her civil suit alleges intentional inflection of emotional distress, which is basically what you’re saying. But IIED is a high bar to cross. And, NJ does have those contributory and comparative negligence laws, which Mr D cited in MB’s answer and counter claim.

How much did LK’s own actions contribute to her injury, including the emotional distress?

Who has a better claim for IIED? LK, or MB who was actually the “bastard” in the “finish the bastard” plot?

Anyone can sue anybody and allege just about anything. But, as opposed to a criminal case, the burden is on the plaintiff to prove their loss, the proximate cause of their loss, and the damages. In doing so, they open themselves up to all those prior bad acts etc. that weren’t allowed into evidence in the criminal trial. On the flip side, LK’s team is also going to present any speck of dirt they think they have on MB.

There’s going to be a lot of nastiness thrown about. But I’m guessing what sticks to the wall isn’t going to favor LK, the barefoot ninja, in the civil suit any more than it did in the criminal trial.

This is a really good explanation of how the claims will play out in the civil litigation situation. Thank you!

[ekat]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

This is a really good explanation of how the claims will play out in the civil litigation situation. Thank you!

You’re welcome.

In one of Bob’s post verdict rants somewhere, she talked about how the criminal trial gave her evidence she needed for the civil suit. She referred to texts between MB and MHG. It’s stunning to me to think that texts between those two would outweigh all her alleged evidence from hours of recordings. We heard some of those texts. You can bet if any of them had risen to the level of “Finish the Bastard”, Mr S would have used them too.

[Angela_Freda]

@ekat

The FB conversation about the cameras from Home Depot took place all the way back in April, 2019, right around the time that MHG told her that if she didn’t like it there she should leave.

Sure, so before creating a story was really necessary.

[ekat]

@Angela_Freda

Sure, so before creating a story was really necessary.

Yep. By all accounts, they hadn’t been in NJ very long at that point. It would have been so much easier to pack up her toys and go home. Instead, she launched a months long plot to Finish The Bastard.

[Angela_Freda]

@roseymare

So if he was enough of an electrician to hardwire the smoke detectors he surely could have unplugged a dryer or FLIP THE BREAKER. I obviously don’t know the codes where they are at but I cannot imagine not have a 220 dryer on its own breaker or having one hard wired is up to code (yes I’ve seen that) if smoke detectors are required to be hardwired. You would think the inspector would have noted that. But then again he let them stay via email

Building inspector or Fire Marshall gave them the ok to stay, after seeing a video of whatever they did
So apparently to him, a video of whatever they did was enough, without literal in person inspection.

[DownYonder]

@Angela_Freda

Building inspector or Fire Marshall gave them the ok to stay, after seeing a video of whatever they did
So apparently to him, a video of whatever they did was enough, without literal in person inspection.

IIRC, the FI testified that he saw their email at 10 pm, and he wasn’t going to go back out there at that hour to verify. So he took them at their word - which makes me wonder if that was standard protocol for that division. If so, it is another instance of the sloppy, sloppy way that town is managed. I hope the citizens are demanding some hard answers from their city manager/city council.

[MorganSercu]

@DownYonder

IIRC, the FI testified that he saw their email at 10 pm, and he wasn’t going to go back out there at that hour to verify. So he took them at their word - which makes me wonder if that was standard protocol for that division. If so, it is another instance of the sloppy, sloppy way that town is managed. I hope the citizens are demanding some hard answers from their city manager/city council.

I am going to be surprised if that person keeps the job. That is extraordinarily slipshod.

[roseymare]

Especially for a fire code. Other violations such as plumbing not so much.

[McGurk]

Re: IIED and her “career”

and first the disclaimer: IANAL

My limited understanding of this branch of law is that you have to show ACTUAL damages.

So if someone left Barisone’s barn and training program because of the atmosphere at the barn, and they’re willing to be deposed or testify to that, Barisone can recover those actual cash losses.

If someone wanted to come and join the Barisone program, he had empty stalls, and they wouldn’t come while Karanek and Co. were there, again, if they’re willing to be deposed or testify to that, there are actual cash damages.

The problem with LK’s suit is that there aren’t any actual cash losses. IF she were a more likable plaintiff, she might be awarded her medical expenses and some pain and suffering. That would be legit.

I also believe your claim of injury/disability has to be VERY specific in order for you to collect damages. As in; because of the injuries I sustained by the actions of the defendant, I have decreased range of motion in my hips which means it is extremely painful/difficult for me to ride at the level I did previously. Also, you have to get doctors to agree to the severity of the injury and the subsequent limitations and be deposed/tesitfy. In other words, if you’re struggling at second level prior to injury, it’s really hard to claim the injury ruined your chances of getting to FEI, unless you get some really compelling expert witnesses to testify that you are the second incarnation of Charlotte Dujardin who was robbed of your chance because of the injury. And still, determining damages for not be able to pursue a hobby at the same level is a crap shoot. Especially with such an unsympathetic plaintiff.

Now, if the Barisone side wants to try to collect for the 2 1/2 years he was unable to ride, train, teach or compete, when that has been a life long occupation, well, let’s just say, the damages would be easier to determine. Like, look at his tax returns for the past 5 years, average them, and pay 2 1/2 times that amount.

Again, IANAL

ETA: It’s also very, very hard to collect for IIED without physical manifestations of that emotional distress. It’s not enough to say you were traumatized, you have to able to say the trauma left you with headaches and an inability to focus, for instance.