Barn Staff Making Me Uncomfortable - Seeking Advice

[sami-joe]

Although I am hypersensitive to the tiniest hint that someone has framed men’s crappy behavior as women and girls failing to display the correct response, I maintain that this frame remains so ingrained and pervasive that we can miss it entirely. Asking girls and women to set boundaries implies, even confirms, that we suffer a constant barrage of incursions. I’d rather focus on stopping/slowing the breaches of those boundaries.

Thanks for bringing up the whole world. I am grateful that while we wait for an update from the OP, no one has gone down the: It’s Worse in Many Other Places™️ road. Women’s fundamental right to be in charge of our own bodies, bank accounts, and educations remains a global one, regardless of minute to minute progress (or regression.)

[OverandOnward]

These are good points because so many of us consider that we are living in one of the most enlightened ages, and in one of the most enlightened countries, for women that may have ever existed.

Young men today are often raised by mothers and fathers who taught their children feminism in some form. Generally the behavior and attitudes of young men today tend to be a big improvement over that of young men from a few decades ago.

And yet. Still. Too many of them think it is OK to touch and grope and grab. To initiate advances without regard to a negative response from the woman. Sometimes even young men who claim to have feminist attitudes.

Some people seem to think that if there is an apology, it erases all the harm. They can do what they like as long as they apologize afterward. But in no way does an apology erase the harm.

It’s like falling off a horse. Even if the horse apologizes, the rider still has the fright of the fall and whatever bruises or injuries may have resulted.

Maybe we also need to teach young people that hypocrisy is a very bad thing. Don’t preach one thing and do another.

Anyway. Not to derail on another side topic but yeah, we still live in a world where women and girls do have to set boundaries for their own comfort and safety. Even though they shouldn’t have to worry about it.

[ShenanAnna]

Some excellent summings-up here, but I notice that we haven’t heard from the OP for a while. In case she is still screwing up her courage, here is a line that I have found universally effective. If an unwanted touch, suggestion, remark occurs, I generally draw back like I’ve been burned with a shocked expression. This often works and doesn’t have the retaliation that words could. In more extreme situations or if it seems warranted, I say in a loud voice, “PLEASE don’t touch me.” Or don’t whatever they were doing or seemed about to do. The loud “please” at the beginning gets their attention (and that of everyone around you) and has a side benefit of making it seem polite and not what it is, a harsh statement.

And the letter to the BM seems like a good idea, as the OP is articulate and won’t have to confront or handle unconsidered responses. Written notice is also easier to document.

Hope this helps, and if more help on the actual specifics of getting this done is needed, there seem to be plenty of folks here that are more than qualified to take this on.

[findeight]

I third OP writing a note to BO/BM if she is finding it difficult to do a face to face with them.

Well know how difficult that can be but OP will be so relieved to deal with it and be done with it so she can put this behind her and move forward from it.

[js]

Perhaps wearing a very loud whistle when you are at the barn. Might freak the horses out but if he comes near you start blowing it.

[OverandOnward]

Another thought on perhaps cushioning the conversation with the barn owner is to first give her the letter so that BO can read it while OP is not around.

That gives the BO time to process the information and formulate her own response. Perhaps even to take some action that she can let the OP know about when they do talk.

When the letter is delivered, it is important to set a time for a follow-up conversation at that time. This impresses further on the BO that BO has to think this through, they can’t just dismiss it. Such as “I’ll come by later/tomorrow at X am/pm time to get your feedback. And then we can determine what we need to do to take care of things.”

OP needs to communicate at all times in a tone and phraseology the expects action. That wants to know the BO’s plans for next steps. This also helps impress on the BO that this will not go away with an airy wave.

We don’t know if BO will be taken by surprise by this information. Of course there will be some surprise because BO hasn’t had a chance to be personally aware of OP’s situation. But if there is any past history, maybe it won’t be a shock. And that might give a hesitant BO more clarity on what they have to do next.

[Djones]

hence my letter to my parents. I was afraid and somehow knew they needed time to process what I was telling them.

[Angela_Freda]

@candyappy

Because he hasn’t actually done anything? Unless things have changed in the 30+ years I have been married this is what I would remember as a guy being interested . The handshakes have lengthened, he holds on longer, making eye contact and when his progression isn’t opposed by her, he hugs her.

Nope. No.

[Angela_Freda]

@candyappy

Most people I know would shake hands.

Exactly.
He’s betting on that to push her past her discomfort.
It’s manipulative.
It is not ok.
.

[sami-joe]

@OverandOnward

The real questions should be directed at the men. Why did you intrusively touch someone you barely know. How did she give you ‘consent’ such that she doesn’t feel that she did. Why did you think it was ok to surprise her with a grab/grope on her body, which is her private domain. Why are you blaming her for ‘misunderstanding’, 'didn’t clearly signal ‘no’ ', etc. & so on (still to this day).

This right here strikes at the heart of patriarchy. Thank you for putting it succinctly.

Here’s a quick end result, worst case scenario called DARVO, if we go down the Women’s Boundaries Are The Problem road.

I see it as Gaslighting For Experts™️.

It’s from Ms Magazine, yes it still exists.

[LilRanger]

@sami-joe

Imagine how different the world would be if we taught our sons that women are fully autonomous creatures and not men’s property.

That’s how I’m raising my son.

[endlessclimb]

I got piled on when I said my friend’s kid is an asshole, and it’s partially because he’s on the spectrum.

“being on the spectrum has nothing to do with the fact that he’s a jerk” is the summation of what I got smacked upside the head with. Eightpond was one of the most prolific posters in that pile on.

So… yeah.

[anon15718925]

Okay and you can be a jerk independent of being autistic so don’t even bring that ableist rhetoric here. Being autistic ALSO doesn’t excuse being a jerk.

I don’t know your friend or their situation but don’t even try broad-brushing this.

EDIT to also add: Let’s keep this more on-topic to the original purpose of this thread, please. Thank you.

[endlessclimb]

Of course you can. But one doesn’t excuse the other, and I was schooled on that by the person who is now having her jerk statement excused for the same reason she chewed me out over.

Being autistic is not an excuse to be a jerk. That was the lesson she gave me, and she was offended that I even implied it. You don’t get to pick and choose where that lesson gets applied. Implying this story is fake is entirely uncalled for, no matter who did it or why or what excuse they (or their compadres) want to make for them.

Back on topic.

[trubandloki]

@sapphiremoon, how are you doing?

[sami-joe]

Congratulations. He’s lucky to have you.

Fingers crossed he has plenty of men in his circle to model and hold him accountable.

I see too many mothers doing the best they can on this front without the support, often with direct or implicit opposition, from male family members.

From my own experience, that is a tough row to hoe. It’s also what sensitized me to the damage patriarchy continues to wreak.

[ShenanAnna]

@sami-joe

that is a tough row to hoe.

Thank you for using this correctly. It’s a gardening/farming reference, not a road to hoe.

[sami-joe]

Lol.
My pleasure.

[ShenanAnna]

My pleasure to see it. Working for a small-town newspaper exposed me to so many illiterate writings that I’m particularly pleased at seeing correct usage.

We had one sports editor who was particularly bad, such as changing a notice for a local 5k run from “No late entries” to “No late entries will be excepted.” Sigh…

[Rosewatt]

Hopefully the conversation goes well with the BO and OP is okay!