Barn Staff Making Me Uncomfortable - Seeking Advice

[Ike]

it’s a “cultural difference” if he greets everyone the same way. if he only greets her, and other young women that way, it’s not a “cultural difference.”

[hut-ho78]

@OverandOnward

Chiming in.

@sapphiremoon

I started to feel uneasy when I was at the barn alone one time and he came up to me to shake my hand. Except this time when I tried to pull my hand away he just held on tighter and sort of stared at me…? After a few seconds he let go but I thought it was a little strange. He has done this a few more times but only when there is no one else around. He will squeeze my hand, stare at me, say something under his breath and then eventually go back to working.

@sapphiremoon

Recently he shook my hand and pulled me into a hug which I also thought was bizarre but again it could just be me. I am not confrontational so I don’t know how to stop him from doing that.

You have a problem. In my life experience you have an escalating problem that is compromising your safety. Because he is grooming. He is following a pattern. He is pushing the boundaries further and further, precisely to see how far he can go … and eventually he will go all the way. As it were.

Soon, actually, given the rate of his escalation. Do not be alone with him under any circumstances. He is giving every red-flag warning sign of a full-on predator. Take your own feelings very, very seriously. IMO your feelings are spot on.

You are not strange, weird or over-reacting. You need to take action on this immediately. You are posting in the evening, so therefore tomorrow morning. No ‘non-confrontational’ excuses as there is too much at stake – for you.

I would like to say ‘I’m not trying to scare you’ but in fact I am, as I think that realistically you have something to be scared of and possibly a limited time to protect yourself before he goes the next step. And the next.

You need to let the barn manager know in writing as well as verbally –

• Everything. Describe his behavior and the pattern of escalation. You could copy/paste what you’ve posted here.

• Use the word “escalation”, because that is what you are describing. Make “escalating behavior” central to your point. That emphasizes the urgency of this situation.

• Use words such as “safety, crossing boundaries, harassment, unacceptable”, etc. Tell her just how it is making you feel – that is so important.

• Tell and write to the BM that when you are in the barn, BM must monitor his behavior and keep him away from you. So long as he is employed there put that responsibility on the BM.

• Tell and write to the BM that you are not able to be in the barn if he is there and no one else is there. Possibly any time that BM is not there. And that this is a curtailment on your barn activity that will mean that if he stays, you will need to leave. (For your safety. Sad but true.)

• Tell and write to the BM that if there should be any sufficiently untoward physical incidents in the future you will be reporting him to the police. (Depending on the BM’s response, it might be worth an information-only call to the police to ask what behavior is considered something they would take a report on and possibly act on.)

At the minimum, the BM needs to draw the line and let him know that his continued employment depends on his never, ever crossing the line. But really he needs to be fired immediately. He’s not trustworthy – even if he promises to stop, he is still a risk to you and others.

The BM needs to know that she has a potential explosion in the barn, one that might potentially have liability attached. Regardless of legal liability, anyone can sue, and that’s an exposure to the BM.

Very likely he has done this before. He may be subjecting others to the same treatment, just not in your sight. After talking to BM it is worth asking around to see if anyone else is experiencing something similar from him.

Also, I’m not an expert on breaking up an unwanted hug, but be confrontational. Abruptly push your arms up and out to knock his arms away and say loudly and firmly “let’s keep our distance” or “please keep your distance”. You don’t have to make it look polite when this behavior is so far over the line. Practice at home a few times (without another person is fine) so that it will come more easily to you in the moment.

If he’s too close, if he’s acting inappropriately, say “I need you to keep your distance” or “please keep your distance”. Speak clearly and LOUDLY. He may back off from embarrassment. If he doesn’t, you definitely want to attract witnesses.

Maybe this is a life step in learning to protect yourself by being confrontational when it is important to do so.

Raise attention to this while it is happening through your voice and actions. People won’t think you are being rude. They will understand and respect what you are doing.

Also, do not keep this a secret in the barn! Silence protects him and puts others at risk. Also others can help by staying close to you when he’s around. You can even ask them to help you that way. Not in a hush-hush way, in an open way.

There is no shame to you that this is happening, no reason to be embarrassed about it, even if that is a natural but unwarranted reaction.

Let others know this is happening! Ask them if they have noticed this or experienced it. This cultural veil of silence and secrecy around sexual harassment (if that is what this is ) is mystifying because it shames the victim and protects the predators.

People who have seen enough of my posts on the topic of sexual harassment in the workplace (and elsewhere) know that I’ve seen real life experiences over my corporate career, seen the consequences to the victims (who don’t like to think they are victims and I don’t blame them for that), and have had to step in officially and unofficially. The fallout to the women is often more serious than people like to think. It really has to be acted on to protect the women. I am a warrior on this - it has to be that way, I’ve learned.

Women’s lives change for the worse if it isn’t handled with all the force necessary.

I have zero empathy for the predators because they do this again and again, it is a pattern they follow for years, sometimes a lifetime. They have zero empathy for the feelings of the women they prey on and zero empathy for the life consequences that tend to pile up on the woman, not on them.

This guy does not care about you. You are an object to him. He cares about his own gratification. That’s what this is about, to him.

Everything in this post. He is grooming you. When he reaches out to shake hands say “no, you take advantage and go too far.” If he tries to pull you into a hug, push him away forcibly and hard with both hands so it cannot be misconstrued and say “NO, YOU HAVE NO RESPECT. NO TOUCHING!” Then you go boss mare with body language. Let that creepy feeling out as anger. Look menacing, say. “GET AWAY FROM ME AND STAY AWAY!”

Report it to the barn manager ASAP.

Show your father the post above. Talk to him again. Talk to your mom. Take them with you. When he sees you show up at night with a parent and they give him the evil eye, he is going to get the message. Tell the barn owner/manager. Tell the other boarders. When that old grumpy woman fellow boarder walks towards him with an angry face when he approaches you, he will get the message. Start looking for another barn ASAP.

Be very very careful. Do no be alone. Predatory men can get angry and drop the grooming and get violent when called out for their behavior or they may back off. Don’t be alone with him.

Your behavior did not cause this. You may be able to stop it but you need help. I guarantee you he is after any other young person at the barn and maybe even any friendly person at the barn.

This is not the first time someone has been approached at a barn by staff or others and it won’t be the last. It’s his problem. Don’t let it be your nightmare. Tell people. Make it clear to him that he has violated your trust and YOU DO NOT LIKE HIM OR FIND HIM ATTRACTIVE!

I disagree with one poster above about going in a stall when he approaches as you can be cornered and out of sight and he could see that as an invitation.

This is a situation where if people ignore you, it is ok to have a meltdown. It is ok to create a scene. It is ok to run screaming from him.

Whatever it takes.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@walkinthewalk

If, God forbid, he is grooming you, being too forceful when telling him to leave you alone could trigger some unhealthy anger in him - how forceful to tell him no is a fine line and a scary line…

I’m glad that we all have the OP’s back, but I have to disagree with this. In my experience, when men do the gradual, cautious border-crossing (hands, hug, then more) they’re trying to create a kind of gestural paper trail to either mentally or even verbally justify that a woman “asked for it.” A lot of crime is grounded in opportunity. Of course, it’s never a woman’s fault if she’s a friendly, gentle person who assumes the best of others, but, unfortunately, I’ve seen such women become victims, and then the men who have attacked them or made their life miserable through a series of little assaults (like ass-grabbing, hugging, being felt up) justify their behaviors because the women didn’t give a clear NO.

I was a member of an educational acting troupe called “Calling It Rape” and resisting sexual assault is not associated with more violence on the part of the attacker.

In fact, studies confirm this. I don’t have access, but if you read the abstract:

“derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey (1992-2002), and taking into account whether harm to the victim followed or preceded self-protection (SP) actions. Additional injuries besides rape, particularly serious injuries, following victim resistance are rare. Results indicate that most SP actions, both forceful and nonforceful, reduce the risk of rape completion, and do not significantly affect the risk of additional injury.”

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1077801214526050?journalCode=vawa

RESIST!

[LaurieB]

@sapphiremoon, you’ve been given lots of great advice. But I want to tell my story to emphasize the fact that you are not alone.

I was a good deal older than you when I found myself in much the same situation. Barn Creep wasn’t my first creep (nor my last). I went to the BO who told me it wasn’t his fault–there were cultural differences, he didn’t understand our norms, he was only trying to be friendly, and besides good barn help was hard to find. (There are always excuses for this kind of behavior.)

F&*@ that. Barn Creep’s MO was to walk softly up behind me when I was grooming my horse in the cross-ties. He’d be much too close before I even knew he was there. But now I was waiting for him.

First time, I turned around and said “Back off!”. He held up his hands in a gesture of innocence, and did. Second time when I said “Back off!” he didn’t bother to try to look innocent and he waited a beat before responding. Third time, I grabbed the nearest barn tool—which fortunately was a pitchfork—and chased him out of the barn, yelling that I was going to kill him.

What I hadn’t realized was that my trainer was just outside with our vet, who was vetting a horse for a client. A bit of mayhem ensued. Interestingly, the BO was a woman. My trainer was a woman. The vet was a man. He was the one who acted, grabbing the guy, walking him over to his car, and telling him to leave and never come back.

The moral of this story is: it’s okay to be angry. You should be angry. None of this is your fault. But unfortunately it’s up to you to fix it. Please do so before your Barn Creep escalates matters.

[hut-ho78]

@LaurieB

@sapphiremoon, you’ve been given lots of great advice. But I want to tell my story to emphasize the fact that you are not alone.

I was a good deal older than you when I found myself in much the same situation. Barn Creep wasn’t my first creep (nor my last). I went to the BO who told me it wasn’t his fault–there were cultural differences, he didn’t understand our norms, he was only trying to be friendly, and besides good barn help was hard to find. (There are always excuses for this kind of behavior.)

F&*@ that. Barn Creep’s MO was to walk softly up behind me when I was grooming my horse in the cross-ties. He’d be much too close before I even knew he was there. But now I was waiting for him.

First time, I turned around and said “Back off!”. He held up his hands in a gesture of innocence, and did. Second time when I said “Back off!” he didn’t bother to try to look innocent and he waited a beat before responding. Third time, I grabbed the nearest barn tool—which fortunately was a pitchfork—and chased him out of the barn, yelling that I was going to kill him.

What I hadn’t realized was that my trainer was just outside with our vet, who was vetting a horse for a client. A bit of mayhem ensued. Interestingly, the BO was a woman. My trainer was a woman. The vet was a man. He was the one who acted, grabbing the guy, walking him over to his car, and telling him to leave and never come back.

The moral of this story is: it’s okay to be angry. You should be angry. None of this is your fault. But unfortunately it’s up to you to fix it. Please do so before your Barn Creep escalates matters.

I wish I could have seen you do that. Awesome!

[LaurieB]

@hut-ho78

I wish I could have seen you do that. Awesome!

With age comes wisdom (and experience!)

I never would have done that in my twenties. But by the time I reached my forties I was fed up with having to deal with the bull$hit.

[MsM]

You didn’t mention your mom. You just said you “vented” to your dad once. Not sure exactly what you told him, but it apparently wasn’t strong or clear enough (was this after the guy “hugged” you?)

You should pick a time with both parents (assuming both are in your life) and be very clear about what has happened and your concerns. And certainly don’t start with “Its probably nothing, but…”

[sascha]

@MsM

but it apparently wasn’t strong or clear enough

Please, no. Parents can be in denial and not hear what they should hear no matter how strong or clear it is delivered It is quite possibly not the fault of the OP that she was not heard.

OP, adding on another heaping of what they (everyone above whose given excellent advice) said. I wish you the best in getting this managed. It needs to stop.

Also echoing, if you are worried you will clam up when talking to the BO/BM, please make sure you have a printed copy of what you want to say so that if it comes to it you can hand it to the BO/BM and ask them to read it in your presence.

[fledermaus]

Write a letter detailing everything that has happened in exact detail to the barn owner. Give it to them and say, “I’d like something to be done about this right away.” Keep a copy of the letter and write down when you gave it to them. If the barn owner doesn’t do anything within a day or so, contact them again and ask what they are going to do. If they dismiss your concerns, you are going to have to start looking for another barn – and tell them that.

I can’t say this strongly enough: this guy is a potential rapist. You need to learn how to stop being passive. I bet you smile apologetically at him! Stop doing that. Carry something sharp with you when you have to be in the barn alone. Like a steel pitchfork. If he gets close to you, point it at him. Say “LET ME ALONE” in a BOSS voice. Imagine he throws rocks at your horse. Be angry! He deserves it.

[sapphiremoon]

Now it really does make sense that he is probably grooming me. It was so gradual. This started 6+ months ago so he has established somewhat of a trust since this didn’t all just happen suddenly. All I know is that I just can’t ignore the gut feeling anymore.

I always avoid going into a stall as much as possible because he has followed me into the stall to talk to me before.

My body language is definitely going to change from now on. No more smiling or accepting any physical contact. I always do a nervous laugh when I get uncomfortable and I’m sure he saw that as a sign of trust or comfort despite it being the opposite.

Luckily I have a flexible work schedule so I am able to just go to the barn on days/times when I know it will be busy. This behavior never happens when there are people around so I feel much safer then. I guess it is also a sign that this is not a cultural thing because he does not do it in front of others. Definitely hiding something.

[Angela_Freda]

@sapphiremoon

This behavior never happens when there are people around so I feel much safer then. I guess it is also a sign that this is not a cultural thing because he does not do it in front of others. Definitely hiding something.

[sapphiremoon]

I really appreciate everyone’s advice and stories. I am feeling more confident about protecting myself. I should not have been so friendly and accepting but moving forward that is going to change.
I am probably going to discuss this with my trainer first and then talk to the BO this weekend. I want to be sure they are both aware.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that there will be no retaliation from him if the BO has a talk with him.

[Scribbler]

@sapphiremoon

I really appreciate everyone’s advice and stories. I am feeling more confident about protecting myself. I should not have been so friendly and accepting but moving forward that is going to change.
I am probably going to discuss this with my trainer first and then talk to the BO this weekend. I want to be sure they are both aware.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that there will be no retaliation from him if the BO has a talk with him.

If there is any kind of retaliation other than he ignores you then you contact BO and trainer immediately and say either he goes or you go.

[oldernewbie]

I’m saying this in the most loving way possible: you need to remove the word “probably” from any discussion of this situation. He’s not probably grooming you and you are not probably going to discuss this with your training. He IS grooming you! And, as all your grandmama and mama bears on here are encouraging you to do, you ARE going to talk to trainer and BM/BO.

We love you and want you to be safe. Be firm and positive and know we are with you in spirit. Get this mess of a person out of your life. Hugs!!!

[hut-ho78]

@sapphiremoon

I really appreciate everyone’s advice and stories. I am feeling more confident about protecting myself. I should not have been so friendly and accepting but moving forward that is going to change.
I am probably going to discuss this with my trainer first and then talk to the BO this weekend. I want to be sure they are both aware.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that there will be no retaliation from him if the BO has a talk with him.

Never apologize for being friendly or accepting. Those are wonderful qualities. Friendly and accepting people make the world a better place, a special place.

This is about predators and you learning how to recognize red flags and effectively set boundaries. It’s just life. Creeps exist to help us realize how great other people are. You have great instincts. Good catch. Trust yourself.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Not sure of the logistics of this, but have no compunction in taking any videos, photos, or recording anything if it will keep the guy away from you or bolster your case against him.

I hope the BO will take this seriously, versus pussyfoot around because good help is hard to find, but regardless, you need to get away from him. I agree with everyone–you are at risk.

[firecracker]

@sapphiremoon

I really appreciate everyone’s advice and stories. I am feeling more confident about protecting myself. I should not have been so friendly and accepting but moving forward that is going to change.
I am probably going to discuss this with my trainer first and then talk to the BO this weekend. I want to be sure they are both aware.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that there will be no retaliation from him if the BO has a talk with him.

We can’t be with you in person as you navigate through this, but I think it’s safe to say that you have a small army of folks here on COTH that are with you in spirit! I hope the talks with your trainer and BO go well, and good for you for coming up with a plan on how to set your boundaries moving forward. It is good to be friendly and kind, but sometimes it is necessary to take action to keep yourself safe.

Take care, and please do keep us updated!

[OverandOnward]

OP wishing best of luck in resolving this quickly.

The most important step is to value yourself. You matter, and there is no excuse for others not to do their job to be sure you don’t have to continue dealing with this.

It is the BM’s job to be sure her facility is reasonably safe for her customers and clients. Including safe staff. She would fix an unsafe fence. She has to fix her staff problem as well. That needs to be a very clear expectation on your part - and your parents.

But. It is your job to communicate clearly and completely. BM doesn’t know what she doesn’t know.

You deserve to not be touched or bothered by anyone if it is not welcome, at the barn, the workplace, social venues, etc. Part of adulting is standing up for yourself calmly and firmly.

Life Rule #1: No one touches you if you do not welcome it. Wherever. Except in an urgent situation to save you from harm / administer needed medical intervention. And normal and appropriate handshakes of greeting .

Barn staff, co-workers, your boss, your future employees, teachers, coaches… etc. entire world population … are not ok to touch you unless you welcome it. Ordinary handshake greetings and the like should be appropriate to the setting.

I am not aware of any culture where men give big hugs to young women they don’t know. Not a family member or friend they see in multiple settings. Any culture, if a man wouldn’t do it if her father was standing beside her, it’s not cultural. Plus as has been mentioned, apparently he’s not doing this to anyone else.

I am so sorry that you have to deal with this. But unfortunately this is a learning moment that you will need again someday. Maybe it will help to think of it that way, and not feel so alone with this. All the best.

[Scribbler]

When I was in my early 20s, despite being quite assertive, I had my share of wierd and embarassing but not dangerous encounters. I took a short women’s self defense course on campus where we smashed boards with the side of our hand on the last day. But the most effective advice was to keep your distance, don’t let people into your bubble, and remove yourself if you weren’t comfortable. Don’t let things escalate to the point you need physical defense. After that course I never had another wierd incident because I just got myself out of there.

[OverandOnward]

If someone ever tries to pull “I thought we were friends“ to justify inappropriate behavior, here are some parameters for who is a friend vs an acquaintance.

Is it someone that you have casually gone out to eat with, lunch or dinner (non-romantic)? Do you socialize outside of the setting where you usually see each other? Do you discuss personal matters with them? Do you have other friends in common that you both share personal chat with (that is, you are in the same personal social circle)? Do the two of you know each other’s birthdays and acknowledge them?

If you don’t share several of those things with someone , there is no reason for the other person to think it is ok to cross boundaries.

We all have acquaintances we are friendly with. And we all need to recognize the difference between true friends and friendly acquaintances.

As a society I’m thinking that we really need training for people of all ages on appropriate touching and behavior. And what to do when boundaries are over-stepped. Is that not going on these days? Still?