Been through a lot with my horse, but wondering if it’s time to part ways. WWYD?

[Sdel]

@dogsbody1

Euthanasia would be easier. Just like wiping my hands of her and surrendering her to the rescue lady would be easier. The decision would be harder but the outcome would be easier. I’m not too dumb or deluded to see that. But… I also don’t feel that either one of those decisions is right. Like I said in the original post, something can be easy but that doesn’t make it right.

If you were not already frustrated and aware the behavior is a problem, and that it is too much for you and you don’t want to continue dealing with it, you would not have asked the question you did in the title: is it time to part ways?

The behavior you have reported should be scary to you, because it’s dangerous, and it is very unlikely that it will ever go away completely. You clearly didn’t expect everyone to tell you this; that it is unethical to pass this horse off to someone else and the only ethical way to part was to euthanize.

I have had two versions of your horse. One is currently in my barn after he decided it was better to try to kill himself than be ridden. When he’s not in pain/worked up he’s lovely to handle on the ground. There are sometimes though that he is just better left alone and handled by opening gates and letting him barge through and throw the hay and feed on the ground by the fence. He is much better behaved on the ground than your horse. Under saddle he has seriously hurt someone. He’s done it all, spin/bolt, bronc, and rear. Now that he’s home where all that happens is that he goes back and forth between stall and pasture and eats he is calm, but I can still see the potential for the behavior crop up, so the moment that changes his date has come.

The other horse I put down. She reared, she kicked, she struck out, she bit. We went from crazy to calm and eventually would meet me in the pasture, let me halter her, scratch her, love on her. But, it’d better have been a good weather day or she could have killed you. One could barely handle her on a bad day. She threw a twitch across the vet room once…while sedated. Basic care was very difficult to get done and you had to be a very good read and go slow. Again, good enough and very “loving” when there was no serious pressure and with people she trusted when the conditions were perfect. She would choose to rear and flip rather than be brushed by anyone else. A trainer got on her once, she made it clear she’d go up and over so they got off quick. She was put down very soon after that.

You do not need to feel like you are “washing your hands” of an unpredictably dangerous horse by choosing to euthanize. But whatever you choose to do, it should never include riding a horse with an ingrained rearing habit.

[Kyrabee]

@dogsbody1

. It’s more like having a sick dependent relative with a chronic illness.

No it isn’t. Your sick relative isn’t a 1000lb plus prey animal. It is a safety issue, not a “wouldn’t it be easier if they were gone” issue. If you are the only one that ever handles her from now on, that is YOUR choice. Unfortunately, other people are involved as long as you board. One of our COTH members was killed in a pasture accident recently. She was very experienced but that didn’t help her. There is just no way a human is going to win when the 1000 lb prey animal goes all in fight or flight.

There is a horse at my old barn that was that way. The owner passed away and the husband could not handle him. The wife had marginal success. So he threw him out in a 3 acre pasture. He doesn’t get trimmed ( everyone that tried fired him) or vaccinated or anything. He is intermittently lame until his ski toes break off. Hopefully he doesn’t pick up one of the communicable diseases that would spread to the entire barn. I don’t think that is kind to the horse either. This horse must be in his upper 20’s and has lived like this since his owner passed away oh 10-12 years ago.

I am sorry you are going through this. That fact that you say she was calm and now isn’t makes me certainly think it is a physical issue. So hard to pinpoint when the animal can’t talk. I would definitely get her to a referral center if you can. That is what I would do to give her every chance that it is a physical problem and whether it can be fixed or not. Only then would I consider euthanasia. I would not let the status quo continue until something bad happens.

Jingles… Susan

[KBC]

@dogsbody1

—I am going to ask the vet about euthanasia. Because I agree with what others are pointing out, it’s possible vets are just hesitant to ever proactively bring it up, unless it is such an extreme situation that it’s the only obvious choice

I think having a frank and open discussion with your vets about all her options is a great idea, be it more testing, X-rays, or yes, euthanasia. It gives you more in person view points. Good luck.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Well, speaking as someone who did have a very seriously ill parent who passed 20 years ago–even in the case of a human being who requires 24/7 care, there are hard choices to be made. Most people want to be cared for only by their loved ones, not nurses, and remain at home, in their own beds as long as possible. That’s not always possible for their kids or loved ones to stay sane.

My mother was a caregiver for much, much longer than I was for her own mother. So I witnessed these struggles for many years. Even within a family, there’s a great deal of fighting about who should be the one to make sacrifices of their time, life, energy, work, and other commitments, and that’s for a human being who needs care 24/7.

You seem to have come here not so much to ask a question but to want validation that you’re right in making whatever sacrifice is needed for this horse. Nothing anyone says here will affect your decision in real life, if that’s your No.1 priority above all else, but understand why other people won’t want to take the same risk IRL to work with your horse, or risk their own horses’ safety around her.

I agree with everyone who said to have a frank conversation with the pros who worked for her, being honest about your resources, level of stress, and options you are putting on the table.

[dmveventer]

This sounds like a great plan, and I’ll also add that you don’t need to make a final decision right this second. Threads here spark a lot of conversation really quickly, but you can and should take as much time as you need to consider your next steps. Talk to your vet, look into finding a trainer that will come to you, and just let yourself sit with the situation for a while. The information on this thread will still be here for you to refer back to, but if you want to take a step back from the conversation that’s a totally fair choice to make.

I actually think finding a trainer would be a more reasonable next step to take before euthanizing, I assumed you had one already when I responded originally. Get someone on the ground who can help you parse out what is and isn’t going on with your mare more effectively than any of us can do from the limited information we have. A lot of trainers won’t get on a horse known to rear, which is valid, but they can still work with you both. They may see a path forward that you/we haven’t, and if not they can serve as a knowledgeable sounding board for any tough decisions you need to make down the line.

I will add, and not to pile on, but your description of your experience level only makes this situation more concerning. The fact that you haven’t been hurt yet is admirable and speaks to some natural talent as a rider, but with only three years of beginner-level experience you’re definitely missing a lot when you interact with your horse. It’s not a knock on you at all, it’s just reality for a sport that takes decades to even begin to master. I’ve been riding for 20+ years and I’m not equipped to handle this type of horse, I just don’t have the experience for it. And unfortunately, while you’re definitely learning a lot there’s no guarantee that you’re learning correctly, and not developing bad habits out of necessity. It’s impossible to know what you don’t know, so getting a trainer involved that’s in your corner would really help.

[Demerara_Stables]

@luvmyhackney

To all those saying watch the videos. Don’t need to, they are a short glimpse, the multiple trainers refusing to work with said horse tell all I need to know with an inexperienced owner.

Except it literally isn’t. She specifically made a compilation showing the horse over time in different scenarios where she was good and bad. Everyone saying that they don’t need to watch the videos is doing this woman and this horse a disservice and frankly I think the OP should disregard any advice they give.

[endlessclimb]

How about the multiple pros? They must all have been horse abusing rookies, the lot of 'em.

[dmveventer]

It really doesn’t matter. OP wanted to know what her options are with this horse. OP is a beginner, so working with the horse herself is not an option. OP tried sending out for training but the mare gets worse in a standard board situation, and finding a pro willing to work with a horse like this is a tall order. Selling this horse is not possible, neither is the rescue.

Unless the videos show a beginner-safe horse, they really don’t change what options are on the table. Your suggestion was that a complete beginner attempt to replicate what you were able to do as a pro - not helpful.

[GraceLikeRain]

@Demerara_Stables

Except it literally isn’t. She specifically made a compilation showing the horse over time in different scenarios where she was good and bad. Everyone saying that they don’t need to watch the videos is doing this woman and this horse a disservice and frankly I think the OP should disregard any advice they give.

I offered days ago and never received a video so?? We can only respond to the information shared

[Sparrowette]

@dogsbody1

Ok, just for the record—so that it doesn’t seem like I am completely and obstinately in denial—I am going to ask the vet about euthanasia. Because I agree with what others are pointing out, it’s possible vets are just hesitant to ever proactively bring it up, unless it is such an extreme situation that it’s the only obvious choice. And honestly? Euthanasia would be easier. Just like wiping my hands of her and surrendering her to the rescue lady would be easier. The decision would be harder but the outcome would be easier. I’m not too dumb or deluded to see that. But… I also don’t feel that either one of those decisions is right. Like I said in the original post, something can be easy but that doesn’t make it right.

@dogsbody1, I’ve been reading this thread and I have to agree with what so many have advised. And what you said here that I bolded, really, the fact that you are posting so much here and agonizing to your soul about it tells me that for you, NO, THIS IS NOT EASY. I feel for you. There is no “right or wrong”, it’s just life and living, putting your one foot in front of the other and doing the best you can.

I haven’t been in this position with a horse (thank all the gods!) but I have been with a dog. Physically he was in perfect health, but he would become Mr. Hyde on occasion. The vet finally diagnosed him with rage syndrome. Eventually we decided he had to go. It was too dangerous to keep him. I had even tried an animal communicator, and all we got was that he would black out and not remember those times. Take that for what you think it’s worth.

I wonder if all your issues about euthanasia are stemming from what you think death is. I don’t know what your spiritual beliefs are, but I accept reincarnation. And it’s not just for humans, I think animals come back also. So death is not the final, evil end that some would call it. It’s a chance for all of us, human and animal, to try again and do better in other circumstances. It’s just the other door. A door we all must go through at some point. IMO, kindness is helping with that passing, when needed.

Just my 2¢.

[dogsbody1]

@GraceLikeRain

I offered days ago and never received a video so?? We can only respond to the information shared

I’m sorry, I couldn’t figure out how to DM you because of your profile’s privacy settings. I think I figured it out to message Alterwho so l’ll try again and see if it works.

[MissMillyMolly]

I think you need to find a non- horse person in your life and share this thread with them. A partner, a parent, a best friend, someone who loves you but is not close to the situation. Ask them for their frank opinion, after they have read what others say about the dangers of a rearing horse. You are so concerned about taking care of the horse (which is commendable) but I think you have lost sight of taking care of yourself.
We can be good, responsible, owners without becoming martyrs. I personally struggle with this, and have been helped by non-horse and non-dog people sharing their perspective of my actions. It’s been a wake up call I didn’t always appreciate in the moment, but so important in the long term.
You can’t be a good owner to the horse (or other animals that depend on you) if you are seriously injured or worse.

[Demerara_Stables]

@dmveventer

Your suggestion was that a complete beginner attempt to replicate what you were able to do as a pro - not helpful.

Where did I say this?

[candyappy]

@dogsbody1

it’s possible vets are just hesitant to ever proactively bring it up, unless it is such an extreme situation that it’s the only obvious choice.

I think in todays culture many vets have been conditioned to NOT bring it up. Happens all the time in both large and small animals. Even when it may be the best solution they just keep going.

My vets have brought it up when the conditions are right but I believe it is because my vets know me and my views and we have a very long standing client / patient relationship.

[GraceLikeRain]

Okay. Videos watched. The original post probably, no actually definitely, did not set this thread up well. I would describe OP as WTC and ready to start centering related poles or single cross rails on a packer in a lesson setting.

This mare came with a clearly installed “no thank you” and go vertical trick. There are multiple clips of her poking around on a loose rein and then giving the middle finger and standing straight up for seemingly no reason.

The most recent videos she’s clearly happy, blowing through the shoulder, and seems mincy behind. There’s probably some pain issues going on, tack fit, etc but ultimately there’s a seriously ingrained behavior.

If she’s genuinely fine on the ground, I’d let her be a pet. I don’t think anyone could watch the clips and recommend that the OP pursue riding this horse further. Any concept of safety is derived from the fact that when the mare feels in control and can do what she wants she’s less likely to explode. I’m sure that if someone out their leg on and gave her a good pop and actually sent her into a forward trot she would go nuclear. The pros have been wise to walk away.

[dmveventer]

@Demerara_Stables

I commend you on wanting to keep her. Despite what some people have said, horses absolutely do love people, and they absolutely can trust an individual or want to work for an individual more than anyone else. You look like you have a good handle on her and are dealing with this in as safe a way as possible.

This is terrible advice and will only get OP hurt. OP does not have a good handle on the situation, she doesn’t have the experience to have a good handle on the situation. Nothing about this is safe and suggesting otherwise is irresponsible.

[Demerara_Stables]

Ok, so to be clear, I did not tell her to attempt to replicate what I did as a pro. You think that I gave bad advice, fine, but don’t put words in my mouth.

[CBoylen]

@GraceLikeRain

Any concept of safety is derived from the fact that when the mare feels in control and can do what she wants she’s less likely to explode. I’m sure that if someone out their leg on and gave her a good pop and actually sent her into a forward trot she would go nuclear. The pros have been wise to walk away.

Yup. I’ve had a number of these in our various rescue intakes. They are fine if everything is their idea. Ask them to do something and not fine. And they might respond with something small, because it’s gotten them out of work in the past, and you think well, I’ll just correct that little no-no and move on. Maybe it’s a little pop rear, no actual problem, I’ve ridden a lot of rearing horses. And for some it is fine, because they haven’t been told no before and they realize this human actually means it and they move on and get better and better. They may regress under bad managing, but it will take a lot of time to undo. But for others, if the small no -no doesn’t work, they escalate. The stronger rider gets stronger reactions, and that pop rear turns into a straight up. If the initial response is a straight up, escalation is a flip.

[Sdel]

@GraceLikeRain

Thank you for your assessment.

[firecracker]

@dogsbody1 I’d love to see the video, if you don’t mind sharing.