Been through a lot with my horse, but wondering if it’s time to part ways. WWYD?

[ClearDonkey]

I wanted to add another vote for the consideration of euthanasia, and also an empathetic hug to OP. It’s terribly hard to be in a position with such a horse, and I’m in it with one right now.

OP - if you have Facebook or Patreon, check out the necropsies Beck Nairns is doing on horses. She has discovered MANY skeletal abnormalities that aren’t normally seen by veterinarians, but cause the horses tremendous discomfort and pain (as the horse looks happy in pasture or even in work). Horses are stoic and won’t always let you know that they are hurting. I would absolutely do spinal and neck x-rays at minimum on this horse, or donate her to a university if you can find one that is doing similar work as Becks Nairns. Pain doesn’t have to be constant either, we all know that. For those that deal with chronic pain, some days are 6’s and some days are 10’s. Nerve pain is a whole other can of worms.

I too know someone who had a horse rear and flip over on them, as a teen. She had her pelvis crushed and was in a wheelchair for a very long time. I don’t think she ever returned to riding, only coaching. And not that it matters, this horse was a perfect, all-around, well-seasoned, safe, safe, safe show horse. She rode over a ground wasp nest and the consequences were terrible.

It’s not worth risking your life on a horse that was deemed dangerous by many people around you, seeing the situation in-person.

[Simkie]

@ClearDonkey

OP - if you have Facebook or Patreon, check out the necropsies Beck Nairns is doing on horses.

OMG THANK YOU!!! I saw this last year, and shared the link here, but damned if I could remember the name and search was turning up nada.

I thought this was very profound:

WARNING, dissection video of a 13year old TB gelding. This horse displayed...

“Once bones change we can do little to offer respite”…

[Incantation]

I remember, years ago, reading about a mare that ended up in a rescue because of extremely aggressive behavior. She was aggressive with everyone at the rescue too, except one person with whom she was ok. She was eventually euthanized and they did a necropsy. She had vascular abnormalities that caused her significant chest pain anytime her HR increased. They believe she had associated people with the pain she felt. Just shared this as another example of pain that can not be diagnosed on an exam.

[SillyHorse]

Just thought I’d put this out here. . .

https://www.facebook.com/reel/892309632454896/?s=single_unit&cft[0]=AZWvtfXEztoNDDVhr9sTqhms4khpIXd0uy4Qg665Y7_syT99A_JIjFnrGMw2gnhOM-e1R0wy0mTQp_1Ze3SosPvnUwrc3BEY1c57VpLbirpoTI0HjQbgt2bKt-uBytwGSDZ6E3ip4dX6kZyI0gYkmFFpsvx2957yLgx53mVxQwjCZBK0IfCzZm9EQtdfc8drl-Y&tn=H-R

[2tempe]

OMG that is certainly frightening…

[SuzieQNutter]

Eeeep I wish I had had a warning but that is the point, it happens without warning. The OP is being warned by the horse.

[BrownDerby]

Reminds me of the warm up ring for Pentathlon at the Beijing 2008 Olympics.

[Angela_Freda]

I think two of the very best examples of how dangerous horses can be are the examples of Courtney King Dye and Silva Martin
Both very accomplished, meaning experienced and capable… And a simple trip resulted in quite a dangerous fall.

If something so simple can have such devastating results… We mere mortals need to be smarter to stay safer.

[SillyHorse]

@Angela_Freda

Both very accomplished, meaning experienced and capable… And a simple trip resulted in quite a dangerous fall.

A career-ending fall for Courtney. I don’t know whether she rides at all any more.

[Angela_Freda]

She’s been doing some para stuff again I believe, to go to para-olympics

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

OP
I commiserate with you on your situation.
I know you’ve spent a lot of money on vets and testing.
Have you ever had a reproductive exam by an equine specialist?
Mares can have Cysts or uterine problems that can cause extreme pain.

This a suggestion, not meant to be an answer.
But I believe you will never be able to make a decision if you don’t think you’ve done everything you can.

Re: Rearing
Rearing and acting out are symptoms of your mare’s deep resentment of any kind of restraint or direction.

It could be a result of unresolved physical conditions, or it could be something else

You may very well find the root if it’s physical .
It’s possible that her blowups will stop if they are caused by pain.

If it’s behavioral, the prognosis is poor.
Only you can decide if you want to keep on investing emotionally in this horse.

You may want to do some research and educate yourself .

Watch some Warwick Schiller videos
Invest some time on learning how to listen to the horse.
Observe what your mare is trying to tell you.
It takes time and experience to learn how to do this.

Your average trainer isn’t going to have the time, the patience , or the knowledge to teach you .

[Montanas_Girl]

Here’s the thing about retraining a difficult horse that inexperienced people like the OP can’t fully understand (please don’t take this as a criticism; it’s just something you have to learn over time). A horse’s “go-to” reaction to stress can never be extinguished. It can be redirected, diminished, and/or avoided, but it will always be there. Most stress reactions - bucking, spooking, spinning, “grabbing ground”, squirting forward, etc. - are not a big deal as long as you can stay with/on the horse for the duration.

Rearing is different. A horse that rears only has to make one tiny mis-step to severely injure or even kill its rider and/or itself. That’s why rearing is widely considered to be the most dangerous vice. It’s why many experienced horseman (myself included) will NOT own or ride a horse with a history of rearing.

This horse is not just dangerous to ride. She’s so dangerous that vets and farriers have refused to work on her and at least two trainers have done the same. She sometimes can’t even be trusted with a human in her paddock.

There is probably a reason the horse is the way she is. But there is no way anyone can ever trust that this mare, even if “reformed” won’t revert to this dangerous behavior down the road if something upsets her world.

OP, I know it is hard to hear what we are telling you. It sounds cruel. We are trying to save your life. What we are telling you is coming from a place of empathy, not judgement. Please seriously consider what you are reading here.

And please, for the love of all that is holy, DO NOT allow minors to interact with this horse in any way whatsoever (referring to the post about her doing tricks for children).

[GraceLikeRain]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

You may very well find the root if it’s physical .
It’s possible that her blowups will stop if they are caused by pain.

If it’s behavioral, the prognosis is poor.
Only you can decide if you want to keep on investing emotionally in this horse.

I think at this point postulating without watching the videos is detrimental. The videos show a horse calmly slowly walking and then responding to a request to turn at the walk, in a rope halter, bareback, by going vertical and the rider coming off. It is very very clearly behavioral regardless of if there was or still is a pain component. This will never be a horse that is trustworthy. The horse has a firmly ingrained “if I don’t want to, I will rear” sequence programmed.

[ThreeWishes]

Agreed. After watching the videos it is crystal clear this horse has learned at some point and for some reason when it feels pushed to go STRAIGHT up. Most of the rearing I’ve seen has been very slow… and from the standstill or walk. But it is straight up. All it takes is too much momentum forwards or a misstep at the top of the rear for it to manifest into a flip over backwards. Ask me how I know. I have a 12 inch scar across my left high butt from where they inserted a rod down the length of my femur. After spending 2 weeks in excruciating traction with pins drilled through my lower leg to pull my broken femur back into alignment before surgery.

I’m lucky the horse didn’t land on my torso and crush my body. I would never ride this horse again.

[fivestrideline]

General comment not aimed specifically at OP at all: I thought of this thread today while mindlessly scrolling TikTok. There are SO MANY accounts with people (so far, mostly young women with unknown skills) posting “Before” clips of their horses rearing, bucking and bolting, over and over. Legitimately scary stuff. Then an “After” clip of them cantering in a ring, sometimes bareback, sometimes bridleless, sometimes in full tack. Tagline is always something like “when you just can’t give up” without any sort of detailed context.

Despite what social media says, this kind of horse behavior gets people killed. And no matter what people preach online, you rarely (never) get the full story on how they got there, or even if they can consistently ride their horse or do xyz now. It’s deceiving for people who are genuinely struggling with dangerous horses. This is why good IRL help is so essential.

[fivestrideline]

@Montanas_Girl

This horse is not just dangerous to ride. She’s so dangerous that vets and farriers have refused to work on her and at least two trainers have done the same. She sometimes can’t even be trusted with a human in her paddock.

So I’ve lost this part of the story somewhere in the thread.

Can someone recall the horse’s behavior on the ground or point me to the post numbers? Before I go through the whole thing again? Besides the OP post, what is she doing on the ground?

@GraceLikeRain

The videos show a horse calmly slowly walking and then responding to a request to turn at the walk, in a rope halter, bareback, by going vertical and the rider coming off. It is very very clearly behavioral regardless of if there was or still is a pain component. This will never be a horse that is trustworthy. The horse has a firmly ingrained “if I don’t want to, I will rear” sequence programmed.

Please OP, don’t get on or let anyone on this horse. Not even for an in-hand pony ride.

[Simkie]

@fivestrideline

Can someone recall the horse’s behavior on the ground or point me to the post numbers? Before I go through the whole thing again? Besides the OP post, what is she doing on the ground?

I’ll point you to this post.

@dogsbody1

When I have found her most intimidating and dangerous has been on the ground.

[dogsbody1]

@fivestrideline

General comment not aimed specifically at OP at all: I thought of this thread today while mindlessly scrolling TikTok. There are SO MANY accounts with people (so far, mostly young women with unknown skills) posting “Before” clips of their horses rearing, bucking and bolting, over and over. Legitimately scary stuff. Then an “After” clip of them cantering in a ring, sometimes bareback, sometimes bridleless, sometimes in full tack. Tagline is always something like “when you just can’t give up” without any sort of detailed context.

Despite what social media says, this kind of horse behavior gets people killed. And no matter what people preach online, you rarely (never) get the full story on how they got there, or even if they can consistently ride their horse or do xyz now. It’s deceiving for people who are genuinely struggling with dangerous horses. This is why good IRL help is so essential.

Yeah I won’t argue with this. I feel exactly this way about every B&A video I see on SM now. I follow this account Featherlight Horsemanship. I even paid for her platform and tried using her techniques on my horse (that’s why the earlier videos show a lot of liberty and bitless/bareback riding attempts). She posts soooo many videos of horses behaving explosively, yet going beautifully for her at liberty after undergoing her training methods. And I’m not saying the methods don’t work — though there is nothing that special about them — but good grief, all that before-and-after footage is so incredibly deceiving. I would put it on par with fitness influencers using posing and lighting to make impressive “results” pictures that were actually taken seconds after their “before” pictures. That’s why, fwiw, in my videos I tried to use clips taken over years and showing good and bad interspersed throughout. That was/has been the disappointing revelation for me with my horse. It’s so easy to take those “after” videos at face value and think, wow, amazing, horse doesn’t do XYZ anymore. But my jaded POV at this point is that horse 100% absolutely does still do that thing, and might even have done it in that same ride 3 minutes before the camera started rolling.

[Alterration]

I am sorry you had to go through that to come to this realization. I’m so sorry that this has been your equine experience.

I, too own a rearer. I have 35 years of riding experience, he rears only under pressure (held in front, driven from behind), he’s only gotten me off once in 6 years (which was a spook and spin) and is perfect on the ground and yet…

Every time I throw a leg over I wonder if it is wise.

That is how serious rearing is.

The world is full of nice horses. This horse, for whatever reason, has something that has caused her to rear straight up when she feels like she doesn’t want to. She isn’t safe on the ground. This is not a good candidate for home life or a rescue. I am so so sorry that we are saying these things. I want it to not be true too.

But sometimes the best decisions are the hardest. My heart goes out to you. Stay safe, we’re all rooting for you.

[Bluey]

One of my rearing horse stories.
In our program to certify instructors, our riding center was importing horses by the dozen for us to train-retrain.
This load had a big, beautiful plain sorrel light gelding, very classy, the kind I really like.
Luck has it I was assigned to him and I was told his name was Dragon.
First day we were in the indoor trying the new horses, all was going well, Dragon dreamy responsive to ride.
As we trotted along, he stopped and reared straight up, as high as he could get and seemed to clap with his front hooves.
I was experienced with rearing horses and was forward, feet out of the stirrups and ready to jump off, when after teetering up there and waving front legs for a bit, he came back down.
The main instructor was white as a sheet and yelled for me to get off and go put horse up, no one was to ride him and horse was gone next day.
Everyone had stopped immediately when horse reared and had front seat to the performance.
We talked about Dragon for many years, no one had seen a horse go so high and wave at them before, an impressive performance.
We wondered if someone had taught him that trick, or if he learned it himself.
Either way, that was too dangerous on a riding horse, completely unacceptable, the instructor told us, safety was first and that horse was not safe.

By the way, one of the fellows in our course stuttered.
The story was that as a teenager a horse flipped on top of him, he had a severe concussion and some deficits after that and stuttering was one.
He quit after Dragon reared, we think he had flashbacks to his accident and decided a life as a horse trainer was not for him after all.

Sounds like the OP is going to keep working with her mare, wishing her and the mare best of luck is all we can do.