Been through a lot with my horse, but wondering if it’s time to part ways. WWYD?

[seabreeze]

@dogsbody1

@atr

You are probably thinking “but they don’t really know her!” But the thing is, those of us who have been around horses and owned many horses over many years, have either observed or been involved with this situation probably more than once and may well have been seriously hurt in the process. I know I reflect on one particular horse that I owned for years and realize now know more that I was damned lucky he didn’t kill me.

And you don’t often get this level of consensus from this group of very experienced people. So do take the advice on board and think hard about it.

Owning a horse shouldn’t be like being in an abusive relationship where you are constantly making excuses for the other partner’s behavior.

I know, but I do worry people are making worst-case assumptions, for example, suggesting I wait for a day she lets the vet get close and then euthanizing her. Is it true that I once had to call off a lameness appointment, because the vet couldn’t physically get hands on her for an exam? Yes, but that was two years ago. And was it true that her behavior was so wild and out of control that I didn’t even feel safe standing in the pasture with her? Again, yes, but again, two years ago. In her latest round of vet exams for Lyme and ulcers, she was fine. The vet handled her all over, took her temperature, she didn’t flinch. She’s had hour-long appointments with her body worker where she allows all kinds of handling and manipulation and is perfectly calm for it. When she feels safe in a certain environment and understands the expectations on her, she’s not a difficult horse.

Please read this in the kindest tone possible. People are making the worst case assumptions because that’s what responsible horse people do. When caring for our animals and for ourselves in our roles as their stewards, we always have to plan for and assume the worst case scenario. That’s how we stay safe and how we keep our horses safe.

The title of your thread is a “WWYD.” Some very experienced, successful horsemen have given you sound advice. You mostly sound like you don’t want to take it, and that is your prerogative. However, what they are telling you is not wrong and is based on decades and decades of experience.

Best wishes.

[dogsbody1]

@seabreeze

The title of your thread is a “WWYD.” Some very experienced, successful horsemen have given you sound advice. You mostly sound like you don’t want to take it, and that is your prerogative. However, what they are telling you is not wrong and is based on decades and decades of experience.

I wouldn’t say that, I would say I’ve gone through all 5 stages of grief in this thread. Idk what else anyone could expect, it’s something I’ve had to think through and process in real time. Obviously it is a weighty decision and a hard one. I think it’s especially hard because of the circumstances. One, the horse can be very kind, and she’s had longs stretches of time where she’s appeared to turn things around. Two, she’s my first horse and I’m inexperienced; it makes it hard to judge the true extent to which this is green-on-green and poor handling vs legitimate intractable behavior issues. Yes, she hasn’t gone well for professionals, but with the exception of the rehabber (about whose skill I always had nagging doubts), she’s never had one dedicated pro invested in her. The pros at the current barn are more suited to doing tune up rides on made horses for their amateur owners—a totally different ask, and maybe even a different skill set, from what she would need from a pro. It has always weighed on me that I got her with the understanding she’d need a full training program, and in three years I’ve never actually provided her that.

Three, she doesn’t rear like the horse in the linked Facebook video. Her rears are more like that “dressage disaster” video that circulated on dressage hub a couple years ago. Still worrying, but balanced and deliberate. Not something she does in a blind panic. Not ruling out she may still be in pain, but it would make the decision much easier if she had clear evidence of physical discomfort and obvious signs of her behavior having a pain basis.

Four, it’s not evident she would fail to thrive in long-term retirement board. Even if I decided I could never ride her again and that no one else should attempt to, there’s still the question of retiring her being more ethical than euthanasia.

Okay I wasn’t going to do five, but there is a five. I know everyone on this thread is giving their honest opinion with as much compassion as possible. And I appreciate that. But I have peeked around at other threads — including one conversation happening concurrently with this one — and, while I’m not saying people are doing this in bad faith, it seems clear the sentiment in this community is to have a low bar for suggesting euthanasia. Again, not saying that makes it wrong by default. But it does make me wonder if it’s something a vet in the real, non-virtual world would agree with. To be completely honest, the only thing that has led me to give euthanasia serious consideration at this point is that I reached out to a former riding instructor who I used to take lessons with while my horse was at the rehabbers. While she hasn’t evaluated my horse, she’s familiar with her full history and has probably followed my journey more closely than anyone else (given we have been punted from barn to barn, there is not a lot of continuity). When I asked for her help with my mare, she directed me to a sport horse auction site….didn’t say she would take her in for training, didn’t seem optimistic that she could be trained up and sold. Of course, I would absolutely euthanize her before sending her to an auction. So, I would say at this point, I feel my two choices are retirement board or euthanasia. And I am leaning toward retirement. But the logistics of making it happen bring their own challenges.

[Bluey]

@seabreeze

Please read this in the kindest tone possible. People are making the worst case assumptions because that’s what responsible horse people do. When caring for our animals and for ourselves in our roles as their stewards, we always have to plan for and assume the worst case scenario. That’s how we stay safe and how we keep our horses safe.

The title of your thread is a “WWYD.” Some very experienced, successful horsemen have given you sound advice. You mostly sound like you don’t want to take it, and that is your prerogative. However, what they are telling you is not wrong and is based on decades and decades of experience.

Best wishes.

“When someone tells you who they are, believe them”.

This mare has shown everyone who she is, a very reactive horse.
That is ok, plenty of horses are.
Is what they do when they react that matters.
This mare acts up violently if as described and rears, one of the more dangerous ways for a horse with a rider.

Even if she only overreacts once every year or ten, that is who she is, believe her.

Friend bought beautiful light roan big colt, gentle as a lamb.
We were admiring him and he told us he bought colt from a cowboy with a broken arm, courtesy of the horse, he didn’t want to ride him again.
Cowboy suffered a concussion and broken arm and didn’t know what happened.

Friend used horse working cattle for several months, one day they found him laying in the pasture, out.
Friend spent a week in intensive care with broken bones and bruised internal organs.
Horse was found two pastures away, went thru two barbed wire fences and not a scratch on him.

Healed, friend kept riding that horse for about three more years, when same picture, friend again found down and out, horse way off after going thru fences, standing there fine.
This time friend’s wife said, no more and gave horse to their nephew, that was a cowboy and young horse trainer.

Years later I asked him about the horse and he said no one should have been riding that horse, especially his older uncle, horse checked out mentally and when he did it was a bad wreck.
He was lucky the few times horse did it, he handled it, but not many could have.
He still had the horse, at that time 16 and used him to give his kids lead-line rides, but always kept a hand on kid’s leg, just in case.

Point of the story, the old “is not that a horse acts up and an accidents may happen, is that when a horse acts up, it depends what is in that horse’s tool box that matters”.
If this mare acts up, it is what she does that matters and she has been showing how dangerous she can be.

[Simkie]

@dogsbody1

It seems clear the sentiment in this community is to have a low bar for suggesting euthanasia.

Let’s discuss some general, generic scenarios.

If a horse has a progressive condition that is causing it pain, and that pain cannot be effectively managed or treated, should the horse be euthanized?

If a horse is not safe to handle, for whatever reason, and handling that horse risks the safety of people who do handle it, should the horse be euthanized?

I’m posing these as generic, straight forward scenarios.

Everything and everyone dies. It cannot be avoided. We can control how and when it occurs for our pets, and the quality of their life up to that point. We can ensure that they have a good life, and a good death.

At some point in every life, there’s a day where the general direction is down. Where every day past that point, life is a little worse.

Animals live in the right now, and cannot escape their bodies. They can’t go have a rich social life online. They don’t decide that the pain is okay, because in six months they’ll get to see their daughter married. All they know is now.

Are you familiar with the concept of “better a week [day, month, year] too early, rather than a moment too late”? It’s the idea that it’s better to euthanize before it’s necessary, rather than wait until the animal is suffering.

Because why would you ever want a pet you love to suffer.

Something you haven’t really seemed to acknowledge is the concept that your mare is likely behaving this way because she HURTS. Because there’s something wrong in her body, and that pain is the root cause of how dangerous she is.

I encourage you to spend some time thinking about her behavior, and her future, through that lens. While retiring horses to a bucolic life in a green field feels really good to us, keeping an animal that is in pain alive is really unfair to that animal. They have to suffer because we can’t make the hard decision to let them go.

There’s no medal for letting a horse die naturally. As owners, their quality of life is our responsibility.

[2DogsFarm]

If there was a Million Likes button for this post I’d have pushed it

& Now I’m going to make an honest attempt to ignore this thread.
Because there is not enough or cardboardeaux to give it a decent end, as it’s begun to smell a bit like the Mah Navu or TB Saves from Stampede threads.
I’ll come back if the Stickart Masters post replies.

[Montanas_Girl]

I really miss stick art. I wonder if it would even work in this new format?

[2DogsFarm]

~--------/^^
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Sort of

[dogsbody1]

@2DogsFarm

If there was a Million Likes button for this post I’d have pushed it

& Now I’m going to make an honest attempt to ignore this thread.
Because there is not enough or cardboardeaux to give it a decent end, as it’s begun to smell a bit like the Mah Navu or TB Saves from Stampede threads.
I’ll come back if the Stickart Masters post replies.

Ok well, for your sake, and because I don’t want to go down in forum lore as one of those posters, I will try to give it a decent end. So, here it is: I want to thank everyone for taking the time to read however much of this you read, and especially those who watched the videos and shared your thoughts with me. It’s rare to ever have a chance to engage with this many horse people and get this many perspectives in one place. So, I am grateful that this corner of the internet exists. I have been given a lot to think about. And maybe by summer, when I’ve made the decisions I have to make and the dust has settled, I will make an update post so you can see how things netted out for me. I know I have posted a lot on this thread — I have had this tab open on my browser day and night, whether I’ve been working or binging garbage reality TV on Hulu — and while I know that seems obsessive, the truth is I am obsessed — with horses, with my horse specifically, and with finding a solution to my situation. So I appreciate everyone for indulging my obsession and talking to me about my horse more than anyone in real life would have the attention span or endurance to do.

Anyway I know this may be both annoying and counterproductive, like that person who replies all to an email chain to ask that everyone please stop replying all. But I wanted to do one last post to try to wrap things up as well as I possibly can at this point.

I’ll try posting on other people’s threads instead so I can contribute to the community instead of just taking from it. I hope to see you all around on other threads with a less doom and gloom undertone. And I hope that everyone eventually gets to know me virtually in a different capacity, and that no one invokes my username in the same sentence as other infamous train wrecks on this forum. I mean, one can hope! And with that, I’m going to take a much needed break. Thanks again.

[CanteringCarrot]

@dogsbody1

it seems clear the sentiment in this community is to have a low bar for suggesting euthanasia.

Honestly, I think many people set the bar too high. Euthanasia is not the worst thing that can happen to a horse.

I’m also just not up for hanging onto an animal for purely selfish and sentimental reasons while it suffers and only declines. It happens far too often.

Horses will try to tell us things, and we need to listen. It’s our responsibility when it comes to owning and caring for these animals. Only so much can be “fixed” with training.

As for what others say about euthanasia, I couldn’t care less. If I choose to euthanize my horse, you can bet that I’m not doing it for fun and that I’ve thoroughly weighed things out. There will always be those voices that say, “You should’ve tried this, or that” or even BS about you being a horse killer. They’re just bloody ignorant and not worth your time. Those that are worth your time will try to understand your situation, imagine what it’s like walking in your shoes, and will be generally empathetic.

I honestly wish that the bar was higher when it comes to animal welfare and euthanasia. So, I do not agree with the bar being low. Especially because generally those suggesting euthanasia, in any thread, are those that have experience/have been there. No one wants to tell you to euthanize your horse for fun, and people don’t take it lightly.

So while it is your opinion, I think it’s a harsh assertion toward many of the posters on this board.

[findeight]

Time for crayolas?

IIRC, we had another, very similar thread last fall. Adult ammie bought an unsuitable, at best,mare from the worst dealer barn in her region and had all sorts of issues related to not being experienced enough understand she did not know what she did not know. Details that were shared gradually changed as that long thread continued for some time. IIRC she changed barns and trainers a few times in a short time and there were soundness problems.

Remember we only know what the OP shares with us in their own words. We mainly only respond to the questions OPs ask based on details OP shared. This OP asked WWYD.

There is no ‘euthanasia bandwagon” to jump on. It is an option in the situation described by this OP in the early part of this thread.

[MsM]

It may appear to some that there is a low bar for recommending euthanasia, but I think the mention is because many of us have had real life experiences in which somebody should have been brave enough to suggest it!

If the horse was only dangerous under saddle, then I could see retirement as a viable option. We had one at the barn where I board. One of the scariest moments in my life was watching that horse go up with the experienced rider who thought she could fix him. He went up high near the wall of the indoor and then his feet slipped out and he was sitting and teetering back. The rider was inches from the wall and would have been crushed. Fortunately he went sideway instead of backwards and she was able to bail out the other side. He was not ridden again but spent several years as a companion horse as he was well behaved on the ground.

A horse that is dangerous on the ground - perhaps especially if only sometimes - is a time bomb for the handlers. And even in retirement, she needs to be handled at times.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@dogsbody1

I feel my two choices are retirement board or euthanasia.

By your own admission this mare has given you problems on the ground. If you choose retirement board you are now placing other people in jeopardy. This is grossly unfair to those who will have to have any interaction with your mare - even if it’s as simple as entering the pasture to get another horse out.
If you choose to try the training route again, find one who specializes in problem horses. Also know that while the “right pro” might get a handle on this horse you may not ever. There is a dynamic between you now and it is unlikely to ever fully resolve.

[atr]

Remember the hundreds of thousands of people who happily rub along with their horses, everyone from trail riders to grand prix competitors, who come off them very occasionally and usually not in a worrying or spectacular manner, and who see the vet once or twice a year for maintenance work. Its really nice when you can be one of those people!

Those people are not posting on a BB seeking answers to their intractable problems.

[floppyammy]

@dogsbody1 there are retirement board options where the horses live out their lives on 24/7 turnout, with worming, teeth float and barefoot trims, all done in the field. Your horse would get to live as closely as possible to natural, with minimal handling by others. It would mean a financial commitment for life by you, which is considerable when you add it up. But it may be a situation she would be successful and happy in and would keep everyone safe. It’s something to consider.

[Simkie]

@Obsidian_Fire

If you choose retirement board you are now placing other people in jeopardy. This is grossly unfair to those who will have to have any interaction with your mare.

Spot on, 100%.

[RedHorses]

@dogsbody1

So, I am grateful that this corner of the internet exists. I have been given a lot to think about. And maybe by summer, when I’ve made the decisions I have to make and the dust has settled, I will make an update post so you can see how things netted out for me.

While it might seem to be otherwise, we aren’t saying euthanize tomorrow. We’re asking you to think about everything - this quote from your post is what we hoped for.

Euthanasia is hard. I won’t say especially so the first time, because it doesn’t get any easier. Both times I had to euthanize younger horses I felt cheated out of the time we should have had.

When I was a kid it seemed like half the Me & My Horse readers’ stories at the back of the horse magazines were tales of people going to heroic efforts to keep their aged horses going. The one about needing a tractor to lift the horse onto its feet every morning sticks out in my memory. These tales horrified me, and I promised my first horse I would help him go before he got to that point.

In those days the culture was keeping animals alive at all costs, so I was very much alone in making the decision. Even 15 years ago, euthanasia wasn’t openly talked about. Culture has shifted towards greater concern about our animals’ quality of life, and medical advancement is showing us how often behavioral issues are actually health issues. And euthanasia is recognized as a kinder solution than what we used to do.

Whatever you choose, for however long, I wish you the best.

[Spudsmyguy]

My Spud was a reformed rearer. He reared the first day I had him home while tied to a post to groom. I contacted the seller and she accused me of screwing him up. Um no, I didn’t. He never went very high and I never came off of him if he did under saddle but it needed to be addressed. A “cowboy” trainer, and I use that term very loosely, got him over it for the most part. He never reared under saddle after that and when I moved, a woman that came highly recommended wanted him. She’s now having a great time on him out on trails and he’s living his best life.

This mare is dangerous and is not willing to give ground and be a good girl. My husband had a horse like this, he was out to get you no matter what. You never knew what was going to set him off. The day he kicked out at me on the lungeline and almost got me in the head (I heard the air woosh by where my head was a second earlier) was the day he was euthanized.

[Angela_Freda]

@fivestrideline

General comment not aimed specifically at OP at all: I thought of this thread today while mindlessly scrolling TikTok. There are SO MANY accounts with people (so far, mostly young women with unknown skills) posting “Before” clips of their horses rearing, bucking and bolting, over and over. Legitimately scary stuff. Then an “After” clip of them cantering in a ring, sometimes bareback, sometimes bridleless, sometimes in full tack. Tagline is always something like “when you just can’t give up” without any sort of detailed context.

These videos/reels/tik toks… drive me batty.

[Cowboy_Girl]

Why in God’s name is thread even still going?

[Angela_Freda]

@dogsbody1

Yes, she hasn’t gone well for professionals, but with the exception of the rehabber (about whose skill I always had nagging doubts), she’s never had one dedicated pro invested in her.

Because a pro understands the danger to their life and income of a dangerous habit.
There are lots (read all) horses who need training, why risk being able to do that for 99% on the 1% who is so dangerous they put your life at risk?

The pros at the current barn are more suited to doing tune up rides on made horses for their amateur owners—

or maybe they choose that cause one bad fall means you’re unemployed

a totally different ask, and maybe even a different skill set, from what she would need from a pro. It has always weighed on me that I got her with the understanding she’d need a full training program, and in three years I’ve never actually provided her that

That’s not your fault. Some things just can not, safely, completely, be fixed.
.