Belgian Drafts for Dressage

[Ambrey]

@egontoast;3358566

Can someone explain this to an allegedly ’ stupid’ person (me)

Sorry, I was assuming you were reading the thread.

I was discussing draft cross breeding programs and AWS with STF. SLC (yes, lots of acronyms) said I was only supporting them because I owned one, and I was simply pointing out that I don’t own one. I own a fairly well bred draft cross that someone took some care with. I do not own a draft cross that was purpose bred for dressage (he was bred for field hunting, so his heavy build was a plus).

The crosses bred for dressage are almost exclusively TB crosses and much lighter than mine. One would not breed Percherons and Quarter Horses with the hopes of producing upper level dressage horses, I don’t think.

I was just discussing some of my thoughts on whether these breeding programs can be competitive in dressage. I hope they are, I love that special spark that Percherons bring to the table.

[Donella]

Actually, The Friesian IS a light draft breed originally bred for pulling but has crossed over nicely into dressage

It is not a DRAFT as in heavy draft. You can call it a light draft if you want, as in Gelderlander, Irish draught, Lipizzaner, Hackney ect. But cold blood…NO. I know the history of the breed of horses I breed and they are not cold blooded, heavy pulling draft horses and they never were. They were bred as war mounts, mounts for the high school and big trotting carriage/coach horses in most recent history. The breed almost died out when in the late 1800s they started to cross them with heavy native draft breeds to use primarily for agricultural purposes. KFPS broke away from those breeders at this time and saved the original breed, which is one of the oldest studbooks in existance.

However, like almost all primarily carriage/coach breeds, you can see that influence in the conformation. Canter is tough…the stifles are weak, they tend to be “camped out” in the hinds and they tend to be weak in the loins with long backs.

BTW…the KFPS has been very, very active in trying to orient the breed towards a riding/dressage horse. The Dutch are good at being VERY selective (ie they approve about 4 breeding stallions in the entire world per year) and they are motivated to do this. So they are looking at the canter and walk and using the same guidlines/inspectors/system as they do for the KWPN breed. They are making progress, but the breed still has weaknesses that make dressage challenging and these are distictly a result of conformation that is a result of a particularly different intended function. And the carriage friesian is still a totally different horse from a Belgian draft…as thomas rightly pointed out.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=A![](brey;3358152]
But we are talking about an entire show circuit- shows across the country where the entire show is nothing but draft horses, and people whose entire life/breeding program/training program is based around traveling to the shows, pleasing the specific judges for the circuit, and winning on this specific circuit?

Kind of like those who breed for dressage, only the focus in on the breed rather than the discipline, as only a specific breed is allowed.

Some of these show circuits are “big money.” AQHA, AHA, and ApHC come to mind as circuits that command big money and give out big money. I don’t know how much money is involved in the draft circuits.

Does Europe/UK even have the breed show circuit phenomenon? I have never heard any european or UK posters discuss anything similar.[/QUOTE] Erm… what I posted earlier is at such event. If I post a couple more with more than one exhibitor in, then perhaps you can count and figure the extent of our agricultural and trade classes:

[IMG]http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/classic-carriages/royal%20show/f7d30bc8.jpg)

[IMG]http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/classic-carriages/royal%20show/DSCF0023.jpg)

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3358370]No, but draft CROSSES are doing well as sporthorses, when people use proven crosses.[/QUOTE] Yeh right!

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3358370] but perch or shire x tb is nice if you choose the right breeding stock… [/QUOTE] You’ll be VERY lucky indeed if you get a good sports horse from that cross. Its like crossing a St Bernard dog with a greyhound.

Here a shire x t/b is often used to breed heavy hunters but most definitely NOT for sports horses. Truth be told though, its an unpredictable cross and there’s way too many BIG horses on small legs and feet! Jack of all trades and master of none.

Just accept the fact that centuries of breeding for purpose and type have made a Belgian Draft horse good for what its meant to do.

However that isn’t fancy high level dressage. Its not athletic show jumping and its not fast and courageous cross country trialling. Neither is it a gentleman’s sports or showy harness horses.

Its attributes are size and strength and comfort and biddability and a placid and easy going nature.

I can only go by those that have links, but there’s a couple of Friesian x
I think you’re going to struggle with this as a concept. In Europe the Friesian is classed as a light harness sports horse. So its NOT even in the same type as the heavy cold blood agricultural horses. NEVER was, NEVER will be.

Its why I mentioned the Friesian earlier when talking about light harness horses that do well at the likes of Horse Driving Trials.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=egontoast;3358317]
STF, DON"T YOU KNOW THAT ANY HORSE CAN DO THE GP?

THE ONLY REASON THERE ARE NO CLYDES OR MINIS OR MULES AT AACHEN IS BECAUSE THE JUDGES ARE ALL CORRUPT AND EVIL!!

ALL HORSES ARE EQUAL IN AMERICA AND CAN DO EVERY DISCIPLINE FROM RACING TO DRESSAGE TO BARREL RACING TO JUMPING TO CUTTING TO DRIVING TO PULLING EQUALLY WELL !!

NEVERMIND SPORT FOCUSED SELECTIVE BREEDING .

THE USA IS THE LAND OF EQUAL OPPORTUNITY!![/QUOTE]

Nice one :lol:

Got to say that I personally don’t get it when folks deny that what a horse does well is determined by their breeding. I don’t understand why some don’t get it that selective breeding is purely all about purpose and type and attempting to breed the best for what you want to do with it.

Neither do I compehend the silly notion that saying a shetland is never going to win the grand national or a Suffolk Punch isn’t going to win the Rolex isn’t an insult. Its a matter of fact.

Likewise a Dutch Warmblood isn’t going to be able to haul a brewers dray or plough a field of wet mud and clay all day.

I have varied equestrian interests. I’ve been involved with both riding and driving horses all my life and including heavy agricultural cold blood breeds.

But its not what I’d look to turn out if I wanted to compete at ridden dressage!

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=Jocko;3358604]
Re: Belgian drafts, draft horses in general …

… According to STF and others, we can’t ride them … according to Thomas, we can’t drive them … SHIT … we might as well eat them (like most Europeans do anyway) :no:[/QUOTE] I never said they can’t be driven. Indeed I said just the opposite.

However they’re NOT a light harness sports horse.

Also cut the cultural stereotypes and get your facts right about the horse meat business. In the main its a dirty little secret in your neck of the woods and also particularly the consumer market is in Canada.

In far and away the majority of Eureopean countries there is no horse meat trade and that includes the UK.

[Kaeleer]

I have read this thread, with interest, and I’m still amazed by what I’m seeing.

No, there isn’t a draft horse in the world who is going to display the grace, cadence, or athleticism which will make him good enogh to hold his own at GP.

And I’m sure there’s not a draft horse in the world who is standing in his stable going “damn my draft horse genes! I want to be a dressage horse!”

OTOH, I’ve seen some drafts and draft crosses perform perfectly adequate lower-grade tests with obedience and submission. Hell, I’ve even seen some place, because of their obedience and submission.

That doesn’t make them “dressage horses” any more than my occasional lap of the track at gym makes me “a runner”.

And therein lies the rub:

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3358528]

My horse is a big goofy guy who is a great dressage horse for an out of shape over 40 chick who wouldn’t even want to TRY to sit the trot on that horse that STF posted in another thread. He would like me to make the disclaimer that the day he propels himself that far off the ground, pigs will fly.[/QUOTE]

At the end of the day, without being a bitch, ninety percent of us probably aren’t dressage riders. We’re riders who “ride at dressage”. Perhaps it’s time for us to acknowlege that it doesn’t matter that draft horses aren’t “dressage horses”, but they are generally safe horses for non-dressage riders to go out there and have fun on.

Having ridden a “dressage horse” and made to feel like a world class pillock for not being able to ride one side of it, I can tell you that there is a market for “non-dressage” horses who can perform a safe, obedient and sweet test for “non-dressage riders”.

[Thomas_1]

Kaeleer,

Excellent posting

[slc2]

I think what Kaeleer wrote is very true. I think people just don’t want to think of themselves in that way, exactly, so there might be some pushback to that concept:lol:.

[elctrnc]

[QUOTE=STF;3357845]
No, not if its easy for them and they are not hurting or stressing joint, muslces and tendons to do so.[/QUOTE]

So what do you say about all the upper level warmbloods (and even lower level warmbloods) that are on joint injections, corrective shoeing, etc.? Don’t you think that, if you need to get your horse hock injections, that you are stressing them and hurting them? Maybe some of these dressage warmbloods (and any breed of horse in its given sport that needs injections, bute, whatever to get it through the day and keep “competing” at a given level) aren’t cut out for the level they are at either.

Edited to add: I don’t think that anyone here is saying that drafts are more likely, as likely, or going to come close to getting to GP as warmbloods. I think that the problem is that many posters here are saying that drafts have no ability to do any “upper level” movements. And like STF and some others have suggested, it’s because it will “hurt” them. Will doing a flying change really hurt a draft horse? Hardly. Will collection hurt a draft horse? I doubt it. And again, if you want to talk about hurting a horse, how about you think about why your horse needs hock injections.

Dressage is teaching a horse to move better, isn’t it? Maybe I am wrong. It seems that to some of you, if the horse can’t make it to GP, it isn’t worth the time. :no:

[Kaeleer]

[QUOTE=elctrnc;3359211]

Dressage is teaching a horse to move better, isn’t it? Maybe I am wrong. It seems that to some of you, if the horse can’t make it to GP, it isn’t worth the time. :no:[/QUOTE]

Who are the “some of you” about whom you are referring, because I certainly didn’t read that in any of the posts in this thread.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=elctrnc;3359211]
So what do you say about all the upper level warmbloods (and even lower level warmbloods) that are on joint injections, corrective shoeing, etc.? [/QUOTE] I think that’s evidence of poor horsemanship and in particular poor preparation, poor exercise programme and particularly with no variety and too much repetition which places too much strain on structure.

Don’t you think that, if you need to get your horse hock injections, that you are stressing them and hurting them?
Yes. But you don’t think that’s the norm do you.

You need to be aware that whilst that might be prevelent in your neck of the woods that its just not happening at all in the UK nor in mainland European countries.

Indeed its totally frowned on with the European mainstream equestrian fraternity.

Will doing a flying change really hurt a draft horse?
No

Will collection hurt a draft horse?
No

But I’m thinking hippopotamus attempting a ballet dance.

Dressage is teaching a horse to move better, isn’t it? Maybe I am wrong.
You are indeed wrong.

The original purpose of dressage is to provide an opportunity to demonstrate how fantastic and well schooled the horse is. The word “dressage” means Training. To perform at the higher levels the horse HAS to be well conformed and well balanced and physically in peak condition. Dressage in its purist form provides to show that.

It should be appreciated though that the movements performed are all intended to demonstrate just how useful the horse will be. Indeed it was originally used WAYYYY back to demonstrate how good a horse would be in battle. And again “true” baroque classical dressage is not only about showing how well schooled the horse is but its also about showing the physical conditioning of the rider. The origins are about demonstrating that the rider carries himself in a Royal Fashion or “Dressed” - Hence “Dressage”

So baroque classical dressage riding is about the rider looking like he’s doing nothing because the horse is soooo fantastically well schooled that it requires only the slightest movement or inflection and merely the lightest of aids in order to elicit the required response.

So the better schooled the horse is, the less the rider does and to me this points out the total lack of understanding of a lot of modern dressage riders at the lower levels who seem to think its a lot of work and effort and intelligence by the rider.

A top level dressage horse requires only a moderately competent rider to present it and show what it can do. However to train, school and “dressage” it requires an extraordinarily talented trainer and horseman/woman.

So the origins of dressage are with noblemen and royalty because they could afford to pay the very best riders and trainers to prepare their horses for them. And all dressage had its origins in Royal Courts.

Hence the epitomy of excellence The Spanish Riding School, is at the Winter Palace of the Austrian Monarchy in Vienna. Likewise the Royal Mews in the UK is reknowned for excellence in horsemanship.

It seems that to some of you, if the horse can’t make it to GP, it isn’t worth the time. :no:
No one said that did they???

[mishmash]

{No, there isn’t a draft horse in the world who is going to display the grace, cadence, or athleticism which will make him good enogh to hold his own at GP.}

www.forresthillfarm.com
Get your facts straight folks, before you open your mouths…

Are there a lot of drafts doing FEI? No.
But there are 3 Percheron/Thouroughbred crosses at our barn doing it and scoring in the mid to high 60’s fairly consistently.

[elctrnc]

[QUOTE=Kaeleer;3359235]
Who are the “some of you” about whom you are referring, because I certainly didn’t read that in any of the posts in this thread.[/QUOTE]

Here are a couple:

SLC2, post 195: after talking about taking in a draft for training…“i won’t do it any more. The horses are so nice just as they are, why try to make them be something else? The belgian became a lovely hill topper for an old lady that adored him, all he had to do was jog a little and walk, she was as safe as if she was with the lord.”

Here is one person who won’t even take a draft for training. Because, “Why try to make them be something else?”

STF, post 210: “When you have those who are not, such as drafts that have straight shoulder, croups and hips that are built for pulling, not elastic quick hind legs, you run into road blocks. Can it be overcome, yes… to a point, but not was easy as the horse that is bred for it that offers.” and later in the post: “I said before, that many draft and draft crosses would make awesome horses for low level AA’s wanting to go out, drink a beer and just have some fun, but for someone wanting to go as far as possible, I do not recommend that choice. Its a long, hard and expensive road, so why not start with a horse that CAN offer the simple dynamics that will make a trainers and riders life easier.”

Here is another person who says the conformation is so bad that it is not easy to work with…but that you might “to a point.” But, hey, let’s face it, that unless you only want to “drink a beer and just have some fun,” why not get something else. That way the trainer’s and rider’s life is “easier.”

Kaeleer, am I wrong here? These two posts say to me that it’s too hard to train drafts and that (1) they either aren’t doing it anymore or (2) they tell their clients to get other horses because it’s too hard.

[elctrnc]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3359242]
I think that’s evidence of poor horsemanship and in particular poor preparation, poor exercise programme and particularly with no variety and too much repetition which places too much strain on structure.

Yes. But you don’t think that’s the norm do you. [/QUOTE]

Have you read all these posts on COTH about whether their horse should get hock injections, how often they get hock injections, how much their special eggbars and padded shoes cost, etc., etc., etc.? I most certainly do think this is the norm. I bet there are plenty of the horses in the UK and Europe who get joint injections as well, just maybe not in your neck of the woods.

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3359242]
You are indeed wrong.

The original purpose of dressage is to provide an opportunity to demonstrate how fantastic and well schooled the horse is. The word “dressage” means Training. To perform at the higher levels the horse HAS to be well conformed and well balanced and physically in peak condition. Dressage in its purist form provides to show that. [/QUOTE]

Then I obviously stand corrected. Maybe you can champion the movement to get all poorly conformed, unbalanced, unschooled, and unconditioned horses out of dressage? It sounds like only 1% of the horse population would be worthy of doing dressage then.

@Thomas_1;3359242

No one said that did they???

See my other post.

[slc2]

Taking something out of context helps to distort it.

“I won’t do it any more” refers to training THAT person’s horses.

I think the problem with the argument is that it is a very emotional one.

We have a sort of indignant, ‘not a damned cart horse, not in my barn’ kind of thing, that has a very, very long tradition in the hunter world that we transplanted from england (white markings were identified with heavy horse breeding, so ‘four white legs and a white nose, take off his hide and throw it to the crows’ kinda thinking)…we have ‘but i love my darling beautiful horse, so he can do anything for me’, and we have ‘getting to GP’ (which most warmblood horses won’t ever be able to do physically to any standard, and sustain it, let alone draft horses*) and we have older horses with high mileage getting joint injections for wear and tear of a very long life of work and many miles, which is found in hunters, dressage, reining, and every other sport, being held up as proof of some sort of flaw in training, rather than what it is (miles, any kind of riding, just miles).

There’s also a very, very strong ‘I hate rich people and their warmbloods’ thing…EVERY person I talked to who had a draft or draft cross for sale in the several years I looked for a horse, said the same thing about expensive warmbloods, blind judges, rich snobs…it’s almost a class war thing, LOL. It made sense til the draft cross prices topped and then doubled the warmblood prices…LOL.

I disagree with the post that ‘draft horses can do collection and it doesn’t hurt them’.

Because…which collection are we talking about?

There is a BIG difference between 1st level ‘a little less sprawled out’, 2nd level ‘rudimentary collection’, and ‘GP, canter or trot on the spot, do pirouettes, collected flying changes, 15 in a row, and do it day after day’.

There’s a big difference between doing a couple soft piaffe steps to impress the neighbors, going to 1-2 local shows a year where ‘the one that wins is the one that stays in the ring’, or where there IS only one in that class, and doing a little soft piaffe and the rest more of a labored jog, and coming out week after week, doing it in a test, to a high degree of excellence, and winning GP at a big show.

Just about any horse can be taught to do a few soft steps of piaffe. Passage, pirouette, those are a little bit different matter…so is doing them day after day. If a really heavy horse is pushed hard, it’s just like a really heavy person running a track event. There’s more weight to move across the ground. It’s simple physics.

There’s a big difference between getting to GP and staying there, too.

*Look around you. How many horses of ANY breed or type go to GP, and compete at it successfully, and stay there.

[Kaeleer]

[QUOTE=elctrnc;3359252]

Kaeleer, am I wrong here? These two posts say to me that it’s too hard to train drafts and that (1) they either aren’t doing it anymore or (2) they tell their clients to get other horses because it’s too hard.[/QUOTE]

I don’t read them as saying anything other than what I said : they won’t make GP dressage but they make nice, safe riding horses for somebody wanting to play in the lower grades.

I have still to see a draft horse who has convinced me otherwise.

At one stage one of our dressage judges had a Friesian that he took to Advanced (which is what we call our level below PSG, I still get confused about the local names for the various levels, so forgive me if I’m stating the obvious) but he is a consummate rider and even he found it very hard, and this was quite an “unFriesianlike” Friesian. I think he’s gone back to WBs.

I don’t really care what you do with your horses but I must admit to being a little saddened by people who feel the need to prove something with their horses, and can’t just appreciate them for what they are. What is the point of making a draft horse into an upper-level dressage horse? Other than to say “I did it”?

I don’t really think the horse is thanking you for it.

[Kaeleer]

@mishmash;3359246

{No, there isn’t a draft horse in the world who is going to display the grace, cadence, or athleticism which will make him good enogh to hold his own at GP.}

www.forresthillfarm.com
Get your facts straight folks, before you open your mouths…

If am mistaken in my facts, then I sincerely apologise.

Are there a lot of drafts doing FEI? No.

And now I need educating because when I refer to “GP”, I mean horses competing at FEI-approved GP tests. I am, however, a rather uneducated little chit from the southern tip of Africa, where we still think that dressage is something you do if you’re too scared to jump, so I may well be a bit off the mark here

But there are 3 Percheron/Thouroughbred crosses at our barn doing it and scoring in the mid to high 60’s fairly consistently.

At what level? And how much Percheron is in the mix? I’m honestly not being argumentative, I’m actually trying to “get my facts straight”.

[elctrnc]

[QUOTE=slc2;3359270]
Taking something out of context helps to distort it.

“I won’t do it any more” refers to training THAT person’s horses. [/QUOTE]

Go back and read your post. You talked about THREE different draft horses and that they all were problems. You are not referring to one horse. So you will take a draft in for training?

[QUOTE=slc2;3359270]
We have a sort of ‘not a damned cart horse, not in my barn’ kind of thing, that has a very, very long tradition in the hunter world that we transplanted from england…we have ‘but i love my darling beautiful horse’, and we have ‘getting to GP’ (which most horses won’t ever be able to do physically, let alone draft horses) and we have older horses with high mileage getting joint injections for wear and tear of a very long life of work and many miles, which is found in hunters, dressage, reining, and every other sport, being held up as proof of some sort of flaw in training, rather than what it is (miles, any kind of riding, just miles).[/QUOTE]

You are exactly right. We have older horses with high mileage getting injections for wear and tear. BUT ARE THEY ARE STILL COMPETING AT THE LEVELS THAT GAVE THEM THE WEAR AND TEAR? Probably. That is my point. Besides, I was referring to the people (well, STF) that said they would work with a draft if it it didn’t get joint and muscle problems. My point was that if your warmblood needs the injections, the horse has joint problems.

[QUOTE=slc2;3359270] I disagree with the post that ‘draft horses can do collection and it doesn’t hurt them’.

Because…which collection are we talking about?

There is a BIG difference between 1st level ‘together’, 2nd level ‘rudimentary collection’, and ‘GP, canter or trot on the spot, do pirouettes, collected flying changes, 15 in a row, and do it day after day’.

There’s a big difference between doing a couple soft piaffe steps to impress the neighbors, going to 1-2 shows a year and doing a little soft piaffe and the rest more of a labored jog, and coming out week after week, doing it in a test, to a high degree of excellence, and winning at a big show.

There’s a big difference between getting to GP and staying there, too.[/QUOTE]

Sure, there is a difference. I am not saying that a draft can make it to GP! Just like how even properly conformed horses and/or warmbloods won’t make it to GP. Will “GP, canter or trot on the spot, do pirouettes, collected flying changes, 15 in a row, and do it day after day” bother a draft? More than likely. Will it bother a warmblood? More than likely. The special horses make it to GP…and that includes special warmbloods. GP is not for every horse or every rider.

[slc2]

What you don’t uite understand is that most of the horses receiving hock injections aren’t lying down in their stalls moaning beat-em-get-em-up-whip-em-up lame, and very rarely is it at all like it’s painted. They have wear and tear arthritis, from miles, and they get injections of hyaluron or other similar things to make their joint fluid better quality, so they are comfortable. If they weren’t worked, they would lose the muscle tone and fitness that makes them comfortable, balanced and able to work comfortably.

Once a horse has reached a specific level, hock injections of hyaluron and similar compounds can be a helpful way to maintain them at that level. Some people even give them as a preventative to maintain joint health.

It’s quite a different matter to give a horse cortisone and pain killers from a very early age, and force them up the levels (cortisone is best when given during a recuperation, and isn’t supposed to be used to shorten the rest period for an injury or make the horse work at harder work before he’s healed up), so they’re learning NEW WORK and worked in pain. That’s not really that common - it happens, but with all breeds, a USEF website review for the legal cases on the docket will clarify that for you…

I know there are exceptions, but the majority of people are NOT these brutal SOB’s forcing their dead lame horses to work for their own greedy aggrandizement - they’re just older horses, hyaluron and other compounds make them more comfortable.

And no. I don’t have and never have maintained a show horse of any type on hock injections, so I am not defending myself - I am just speaking out against something that is not a sound argument, but an emotionally laden condemnation that doesn’t really serve any purpose in the current discussion.

[elctrnc]

[QUOTE=slc2;3359302]
What you don’t quite understand is that most of the horses receiving hock injections aren’t lying down in their stalls moaning beat-em-get-em-up-whip-em-up lame, and very rarely is it at all like it’s painted. They have wear and tear arthritis, from miles, and they get injections of hyaluron or other similar things to make their joint fluid better quality, so they are comfortable. If they weren’t worked, they would lose the muscle tone and fitness that makes them comfortable, balanced and able to work comfortably. I know there are exceptions, but the majority of people are NOT these brutal SOB’s forcing their dead lame horses to work for their own greedy aggrandizement - they’re just older horses, hyaluron and other compounds make them more comfortable.

And no. I don’t have and never have maintained a show horse of any type on hock injections, so I am not defending myself - I am just speaking out against something that is not a sound argument, but an emotionally laden condemnation that doesn’t really serve any purpose in the current discussion.[/QUOTE]

No, I think you don’t quite understand. My point was that if your horse needs hock injections, then the horse is sore. You are honestly saying that people go around and just get their horses hock injections for fun–and not because their horses need them? Read the posts on this board, SLC2, people get hock injections because their horses aren’t moving as well as they used to…or are “off”…or because there was an injury. I am not saying people are “evil” because they give their horses hock injections. If it makes the horse more comfortable, that is great. My point is that if your horse needs the injections, then maybe the horse is not cut out for the level the horse is currently at.

And yes, it absolutely serves a purpose in this discussion. Someone insinuated that dressage hurts a draft horse. My point was that if your horse needs injections, then maybe it is already in some discomfort and that you are asking too much of the horse. It’s like the people who say that they, themselves, are perfectly happy taking aspirin every day for pain in their bodies. That is their choice. It is their choice if they want to get Legend for their horse. I am sure the horse thanks them.