Oh, and SLC2
You never answered my question. Will you take a draft in for training?
There is a difference between a 7-yr old getting hock injections, and an 18 year old getting hock injections.
A competition horse that is ridden responsibly, and has the right conformation for the job, may nonetheless benefit from injections as he ages.
A 7 year old who is sore and getting injections is a sign of 1) improper riding and/or 2) someone using the horse in a way that is not consistent with his conformation.
(Please note, I am aware that some well respected horsemen do preventative injections on all their horses as a matter of course… I’m not getting into that right now. I’m just saying if your 7-yr-old needs injections BECAUSE he is sore… that’s different)
Yes injections are used in Europe, but in general I think they are used FAR less than here in the U.S. – or at least, that is my perception.
If I took a severely downhill horse (whether that horse was TB, QH, Belgian Draft, or Warmblood), and trained him in piaffe… I would fully expect that horse to have hock and back problems. I think when people were arguing earlier that its “unfair” to ask a horse to do mid or upper level dressage when he’s not built for it… this is what they were thinking of.
[QUOTE=Kaeleer;3359272]
I don’t really care what you do with your horses but I must admit to being a little saddened by people who feel the need to prove something with their horses, and can’t just appreciate them for what they are. What is the point of making a draft horse into an upper-level dressage horse? Other than to say “I did it”? [/QUOTE]
What is the point of making any horse an upper-level dressage horse? If that’s what the owner wants to do, then that is their choice. I just get tired of the threads like this. Nowadays, if the horse isn’t a warmblood, it can’t do GP dressage. Insert another breed in for “draft” into this thread, and you will get similar arguments.
BTW, I don’t have a draft. I have a TB who has her own problems trying to do a good dressage test. :lol:
Good luck to everyone and their horses “that do dressage.” Whatever breed and level they may be.
This has to be the most inane thing I’ve read here in a long time.
You are saying that Lipizzaner horses are NOT built for dressage. Horses that have been bred since the mid 1500s for extreme collection, trainability and temperament are . not. built. for. dressage.
I think I just inhaled my Cheerios. Are you for real?
Let’s break this down, shall we? The most difficult movement – and ultimate movement – of competitive dressage is piaffe, correct? If you don’t agree, just nod anyhow, I do have a point.
The piaffe for the Spanish Riding School isn’t the end. It’s the START of the Airs Above the Ground. There are not many WBs that can do a levade, or pesade or capriolle, or courbette, or ballantade performance after performance after performance, are there? Not without breaking down big time, that is.
So, let’s redefine “modern” dressage and add Airs Above the Ground. . .just for fun!
You have your first levels with no collection
You have your next levels with collection
You have your levels with piaffe et al
And now you have your levels with Airs
Guess what? GASP!!! WBs just fell in the same classification as drafts do. They suddenly can’t get to the upper levels, because they are not built for it.
What a shame.
THe above was for fun. Food for thought. Not gonna argue the point at all. I do have a point though.
The comment about Iberians not being built for dressage is utter BS. WBs are popular, that’s the ONLY reason they dominate.
BTW, my above statements do not mean that I support draughts being used for dressage. I’m very much for “use the breed for what it was bred for”. I just dislike ignorance.
My 2 cents and that was kinda fun 
Eileen
[QUOTE=elctrnc;3359262]
Have you read all these posts on COTH about whether their horse should get hock injections, [/QUOTE] Yes and have you seen my responses where I say they’re not dealing with the root cause of the problem and that’s not the norm and shouldn’t be so considered
I bet there are plenty of the horses in the UK and Europe who get joint injections as well, just maybe not in your neck of the woods.
Admittedly I’m totally embedded in the mainstream so my experience is limited in the main to those that have been doing it for decades and doing it using old fashioned equestrianism.
I genuinely don’t personally know a single soul who is having their horse’s hocks injected so they can compete them
Then I obviously stand corrected. Maybe you can champion the movement to get all poorly conformed, unbalanced, unschooled, and unconditioned horses out of dressage?
It sounds like only 1% of the horse population would be worthy of doing dressage then.
You may well be right
You never answered my question. Will you take a draft in for training?
Its an irrelevent question Slc isn’t a trainer. Nor as far as anyone can ascertain, even a competitive rider.
Hey - wait a minute. What is a greenbroke horse doing in a Pelham? Especially for light ring work?
Full drafts can execute the upper level movements - they can “do” it. But why would a person even want to bother? A person meaning, a serious amateur or a professional bringing horses along with the purpose of doing the GP. Even if the draft can do it - and they can - what would be the purpose?
As much as I like draft horses, and have seen some beautiful and correct work under harness and under saddle - I hope no one is asserting they can be competitive at the upper levels. Unless one is breeding specifically for the purpose (and do we really need yet another sporthorse breed), they’re not going to have the suspension and brilliance required.
Some of y’all seem to be a bit unfair to the draft breeds; stating that they’re bred to pull and that’s it and that’s that. It’s kind of like saying most WB’s are bred for dressage so they can’t do anything else.
Well of course they can. The breed might be bred for one purpose - yet perform just as well in another sport or activity - or even better. It’s really not a big deal - not even worth commenting on.
I’m not sure why the subject is even worth arguing about. I think dressage riders engage in a great deal of breed snobbery - but I don’t think there is any conspiracy to make sure no other breed ever performs the GP. :lol:
And I certainly don’t believe that the horses give a darn one way or the other.
It’s unfortunate that the baroque breeds do not seem to be popular as dressage mounts anymore. Since those horses were bred for the purpose for centuries, it seems odd that riders now state the breeds aren’t suited for very movements they were bred for.
Unless what they really mean is that they’re not flashy enough to win ribbons. But that isn’t the same thing.
I think most people posting on this thread have very little experience with draft horses OR dressage! They are coming for their own breed-specific (i.e. WB) background. It’s unfortunate that they would feel they have more of a claim to dressage than anyone else. 
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3358152]
Some of these show circuits are “big money.” AQHA, AHA, and ApHC come to mind as circuits that command big money and give out big money. I don’t know how much money is involved in the draft circuits.[/QUOTE]
:lol:
AHA paying out big money. Now that’s funny. If there’s LESS money in showing drafts than in showing Arabians, the winners must have to pay a toll to do a victory lap.
To the OP’s question – I know of one Belgian cross whose owner shows in dressage. The mare is forward and willing, but it’s hard for her get off her front end. She can also be a freight train and although the previous owner showed her in First, she just cranked her in with a twisted wire snaffle to slow her down. That did some real damage, mentally and physically.
It took 18 months to get the horse to accept the bit again. She’s showing TL right now and may make it to First again, this time ridden correctly. But the mare has had a few problems with her hocks, so it’s becoming more iffy.
[QUOTE=Roan;3359420]
This has to be the most inane thing I’ve read here in a long time.
You are saying that Lipizzaner horses are NOT built for dressage. Horses that have been bred since the mid 1500s for extreme collection, trainability and temperament are . not. built. for. dressage.
I think I just inhaled my Cheerios. Are you for real?
Let’s break this down, shall we? The most difficult movement – and ultimate movement – of competitive dressage is piaffe, correct? If you don’t agree, just nod anyhow, I do have a point.
The piaffe for the Spanish Riding School isn’t the end. It’s the START of the Airs Above the Ground. There are not many WBs that can do a levade, or pesade or capriolle, or courbette, or ballantade performance after performance after performance, are there? Not without breaking down big time, that is.
So, let’s redefine “modern” dressage and add Airs Above the Ground. . .just for fun!
You have your first levels with no collection
You have your next levels with collection
You have your levels with piaffe et al
And now you have your levels with Airs
Guess what? GASP!!! WBs just fell in the same classification as drafts do. They suddenly can’t get to the upper levels, because they are not built for it.
What a shame.
THe above was for fun. Food for thought. Not gonna argue the point at all. I do have a point though.
The comment about Iberians not being built for dressage is utter BS. WBs are popular, that’s the ONLY reason they dominate.
BTW, my above statements do not mean that I support draughts being used for dressage. I’m very much for “use the breed for what it was bred for”. I just dislike ignorance.
My 2 cents and that was kinda fun
Eileen[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you should read my post again. Where did I say that Lips aren’t built for Dressage?? They are a pure breed of horse that have been purpose bred for hundreds of years for “high school” Dressage. That is rather common knowlege among horse folks :lol:
This is what I actually said: I always get a kick out of the claim that the Iberians are the “true” dressage horses. Allrightythen. The FACT is that the European Warmblood horses DOMINATE Dressage. (Show Jumping as well) They have for years and will continue to do so. Why? Because they are bred and built for sport and are VERY GOOD at it Just like Quarter Horses will ALWAYS dominate Barrel Racing. . . . Gee Whiz, Lips wearn’t even mentioned, nor did I say Iberians wearn’t built for dressage. I only said Warmbloods DOMINATE because they are bred and built for it.
So Warmbloods only dominate because they are popular. Yah, Right :lol: You do realize of course, that they have “earned” their popularity BECAUSE they are so darn good at their JOBS.
This thread is about Drafts and UL Dressage. It’s pretty common knowlege that the right Iberian (Andys and Lusis, are what I think of as Iberians) is pretty darn good at Dressage, but they are not the only “true” Dressage horse or they would be at the top of the standings.
And to help you understand… I am refering to the Dressage we do at Horse Shows. Competitive Dressage. :rolleyes:
All I know is that it requires a lot of effort to pound a square peg into a round hole.
I only have half drafts - but have found them to be very versatile horses. But they’re not real Warmbloods, and though I think one of them was capable of working within the upper levels (not with me of course but my old dressage trainer) - he’s too baroque looking to ever be competitive. And had he been a full draft - even less so.
So why even try? Really - I’m too old to tilt at windmills. :lol:
Though I have seen some surprisingly lightly built drafts; their gigantic heads are usually a dead giveaway. Which reminds me - anyone know where I can get a 7" french link snaffe??? Help!
OP even said she’s concerned with dressage as training and not as exhibition…
For the record, we have never injected hocks, or anything else. Meisterwind competed through I-1 barefoot, was sucessful at GP and retired sound. He never even “ate” joint supplements.
[QUOTE=canticle;3359485]
OP even said she’s concerned with dressage as training and not as exhibition…[/QUOTE]
Wrong.
The OP was specific in saying:
However, I am curious about the suitability of this breed with regards of progressing up the levels of dressage, especially at second level and higher.
Clearly, then, the answer to the puzzle of Ultimate Dressage Horse is to breed Perchies to Lippizaners. 
huge sigh
Dressage is training, that is what it means in french terms. Its just flat work from the most simple to the more complex built on a system to bring the horse along and develop strength, power, yet suppleness and balance.
Flying changes are low mid level movements and no, they should not hurt a horse. Unfort. due to the size and body structure of the horses in question (drafts with open hips and straighter shoulder, etc) they can not step up under themself and lift into the change very easy. Can they do it, well yes… its a normal movement of a horse, but in the detail of a Grand Prix test of 1 tempi’s in a line across the diagonal? I would say not.
I have said this over and over and over and OVER… any horse can do dressage. Its TRAINING, it just where the horse is going to max out at.
As for upper level horses and older horses having injections. Well sweetie, I am 35 and Im creaky, stiff and hurting due to injuries from athletics, riding and yrs of martial arts. I have been injected to feel better myself, so having a horse injected, does not bother me what so ever as long as the hosre is still HAPPY to do the job. Anyone with any horse sense can look at an aminal being ridden and see if its happy, relaxed and confortable, THAT is the key. As long as a horse is those I just listed, then I feel its fine to keep training.
Don’t you think that, if you need to get your horse hock injections, that you are stressing them and hurting them? Yes. But you don’t think that’s the norm do you.
You need to be aware that whilst that might be prevelent in your neck of the woods that its just not happening at all in the UK nor in mainland European countries.
Indeed its totally frowned on with the European mainstream equestrian fraternity.
Yes, but Thomas, here in the states we still see so many horses that are just not built for the job and being pushed into it. I mean unhappy, swishing tails, ears back, griding teeth, etc, etc.
Plus in your neck of the woods, you have a more abundance of correct horses for the sport and a trainers system that has to be passed to BE A TRAINER. Here, anyone can hang their sign out as a trainer and the next thing you see are gagets and such to bring horses along. People are so into SHOW THE LEVEL, they forget about horsemanship and the scale.
Well an example would be Ambreys post of having to ride her draftX in a double at Walk Trot work becuase he is thick and heavy in the neck and strong on her hands.
THANK YOU!
I dont think SLC is a trainer, so that does not apply or is fair to her.
I ride every day in an arena with 6 figure horses
Sorry–I just kept picturing you riding in an arena surrounded by half a dozen cutouts of Morgan horses! 
