Belgian Drafts for Dressage

[tartanfarm]

[QUOTE=Kaeleer;3359272]

I don’t really care what you do with your horses but I must admit to being a little saddened by people who feel the need to prove something with their horses, and can’t just appreciate them for what they are. What is the point of making a draft horse into an upper-level dressage horse? Other than to say “I did it”? .[/QUOTE]

So then what is the point of making a WB or an Iberian or any breed into an upper level horse. For me other then showing, there is the journey. Quite a few of us have no desire to show, or realistically know that we won’t ever compete in a CDI*** . We ride/train daily, take lessons, work thru training issues. But mostly we enjoy our horses.
And even if I do choose to show, the purpose would be to get a fair evaluation of my horses training at the level we have entered. I can accept my horses shortcomings but want her strengths acknowledged as well.

[STF]

@canticle;3359459

I think most people posting on this thread have very little experience with draft horses OR dressage! They are coming for their own breed-specific (i.e. WB) background. It’s unfortunate that they would feel they have more of a claim to dressage than anyone else.

Ok, you figured it out! LMAO
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Cooper]

Thomas, what does the UK and Europe think about Adequan and Legend? I am having a hard time believing they aren’t using them as much as we are here in the States, especially considering they are one of the FEW drugs allowed in FEI competition.

[STF]

Though I have seen some surprisingly lightly built drafts; their gigantic heads are usually a dead giveaway. Which reminds me - anyone know where I can get a 7" french link snaffe??? Help!

7"??? YOUR KIDDING ME!!! OMG!!!

[STF]

@NoDQhere;3359492

For the record, we have never injected hocks, or anything else. Meisterwind competed through I-1 barefoot, was sucessful at GP and retired sound. He never even “ate” joint supplements.

We too have an 18 yr old 4th level schoolmaster that we have for sale. We just Xrayed her and she Xrays totally clean!!!
LaNet

[Jocko]

Sorry, STF …

I CAN ride my draft horse in dressage but I shouldn’t take myself to seriously while doing it. That’s okay, I really try not to take myself seriously doing anything of late.

… and Thomas …

Not to start an anti-slaughter campaign but most horse meat is exported to mainland Europe and Asia. Percherons in France are bred like cows are in the US for meat. Italy has a cute little draft horse they use primarily for meat.

Now about those square pegs in round holes …

I find that pounding on them doesn’t really accomplish much but if you take a very sharp knife (training) and carefully trim the edges off they fit quite nicely. The sharper the knife the better it works.

See ya around … I’m going out to the barn to trim some square pegs.

[Roan]

@NoDQhere;3359475

Perhaps you should read my post again. Where did I say that Lips aren’t built for Dressage?? They are a pure breed of horse that have been purpose bred for hundreds of years for “high school” Dressage. That is rather common knowlege among horse folks :lol:

You said Iberian horses, didn’t you?

Lipizzaners ARE Iberian horses. They took Spanish horses, Andalusians, Barbs and Berbers bred them to the local Karst horses. The Karst were small, white, hardy, high stepping horses. Very tough cookies. Eventually there were six stallion lines with ONE being an Arab: Siglavy.

This is why it’s called the Spanish Riding School – the horses are Spanish in descent.

[COLOR=“Red”]I only said Warmbloods DOMINATE because they are bred and built for it.
And I’m saying you’re incorrect. Traditional Lipizzaners are bred for advanced High School movements, which is far beyond what WBs can do. So their domination must be something else, no? Flashiness? Size? Availability? Pick any two and you’d win.

So Warmbloods only dominate because they are popular. Yah, Right :lol: You do realize of course, that they have “earned” their popularity BECAUSE they are so darn good at their JOBS.
They have awesome extensions and are flashy. Most of them can’t sit worth a peanut, IMO. They’re good up to the point that competitive dressage stops, but no further.

. . .knowlege that the right Iberian (Andys and Lusis, are what I think of as Iberians) is pretty darn good at Dressage, but they are not the only “true” Dressage horse or they would be at the top of the standings.

Incorrect. If you look at the NUMBERS of Lipizzaners showing dressage versus the NUMBERS of WB showing dressage, then look at their levels, I think you’d be a little surprised. There are less than 4,000 Lipizzaners in the world. About 2,000 of them are in North America. Those numbers are very recent, btw. After WWII there were ~250 Lipizzaners left in the world.

I’ll be generous – let’s say out of those 2,000 horses in North American 25 of them are currently being shown in competitive dressage. Out of those 25, I’d say 4 are showing 4th and up.

Radomly pick 25 WBs currently showing in dressage. How many are showing 4th and up?

It’s a numbers game.

And to help you understand… I am refering to the Dressage we do at Horse Shows. Competitive Dressage. :rolleyes:
Lower level stuff, you mean? High School and the Airs are part of dressage, whether or not they are used in competition or not

Eileen

[elctrnc]

[QUOTE=STF;3359634]
I dont think SLC is a trainer, so that does not apply or is fair to her.[/QUOTE]

Is it that hard to read, people? Go back to the post that I mentioned when I brought this up. SLC2 talks about TRAINING a draft horse. Here it is, from post 195. Now, as Thomas said, whether SLC2 is actually a competitive rider is a whole other story. :lol:

@slc2

I trained a Percheron and a Belgian for different people at various times, to do dressage. I felt very sorry for the horses, actually. They tried their hearts out, and it was very difficult for them…

How is it “unfair” for me to ask this question? If she doesn’t want to address it, then she shouldn’t talk about training drafts.

How about you, STF? Would you ever train a draft horse? How about one that doesn’t wring its tail and grind its teeth? I already know you take in arabians. You think an arabian is going to make it to the upper levels?

@STF

As for upper level horses and older horses having injections. Well sweetie, I am 35 and Im creaky, stiff and hurting due to injuries from athletics, riding and yrs of martial arts. I have been injected to feel better myself, so having a horse injected, does not bother me what so ever as long as the hosre is still HAPPY to do the job. Anyone with any horse sense can look at an aminal being ridden and see if its happy, relaxed and confortable, THAT is the key. As long as a horse is those I just listed, then I feel its fine to keep training.

Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

[STF]

Sorry, STF …

I CAN ride my draft horse in dressage but I shouldn’t take myself to seriously while doing it. That’s okay, I really try not to take myself seriously doing anything of late.

I never said the horses CANT be ridden!!!

I have now come to the conclusion that draft riders and owners have a compreshension problem as well, because they can not read and retain very well.

[STF]

Originally Posted by STF
As for upper level horses and older horses having injections. Well sweetie, I am 35 and Im creaky, stiff and hurting due to injuries from athletics, riding and yrs of martial arts. I have been injected to feel better myself, so having a horse injected, does not bother me what so ever as long as the hosre is still HAPPY to do the job. Anyone with any horse sense can look at an aminal being ridden and see if its happy, relaxed and confortable, THAT is the key. As long as a horse is those I just listed, then I feel its fine to keep training.
Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Most big barns and big vets are now using the Legend and Adaquain protocol on young horses are preventative.
The chances of taking a high powered horse either jumping or dressage or eventing and not getting some injury is slim to none. Hell, they can hurt themselves in a stall. And for the record, NONE of my horses here have have joint injections, but the ones in harder work are getting the L and A every other month.

[Roan]

[QUOTE=caffeinated;3359548]
Clearly, then, the answer to the puzzle of Ultimate Dressage Horse is to breed Perchies to Lippizaners. :)[/QUOTE]

Wouldn’t work – the reason the Lips excel at High School is because of their small size. The ideal size for an Airs horse is 14.3hh, any taller and mass becomes a real problem. Their hind ends are also built much differently than non-baroque horses are, which is why they can sit like they do.

A good cross is Lip/Arab.

A better idea is to buy a “sporthorse” or carriage-type Lipizzaner. These are the ones that have the classical look, but are taller and rangier. Mine is 15.3hh, but a woman in VA stands a purebred Lip stallion who exceeds 17hh. Flashy, and they can extend nicely, too. Many breeders in the US are working on developing a more “competitive dressage” friendly sporthorse Lip.

I prefer the more classically built Lip, myself, but when you are looking for a Lipizzaner under saddle around 7-8 years old – it can take years. They’re pretty rare.

Eileen

[mishmash]

[QUOTE=Kaeleer;3359281]

At what level? And how much Percheron is in the mix? I’m honestly not being argumentative, I’m actually trying to “get my facts straight”.[/QUOTE]

50% Perch, 50% TB.
Two are at PSG, 1 at I2, preparing to debut at GP

I have seen some poor TB/Perch crosses and full drafts, but have also seen some lovely and talented ones.
I have seen some poor WBs, but also seen some lovely and talented ones.
You just cant make a broad generalization based on the breed of the horse…

[Jocko]

STF you wrote:

And obviously you can read either, since I have wrote over and over they are fine for lower levels and make superb AA horses for those just wanting to have fun in the ring.

To me, that means that I am not a “serious” or “competive” dressage rider. If I were, I would have a horse that is bred for generations to do upper level dressage. A warmblood, for instance.

Just trying to clarify.

[Roan]

[QUOTE=Wellspotted;3359641]
Sorry–I just kept picturing you riding in an arena surrounded by half a dozen cutouts of Morgan horses! ;)[/QUOTE]

snorf!

OMG, now I HAVE inhaled my Cheerios!

Eileen

[elctrnc]

[QUOTE=STF;3359697]
And for the record, NONE of my horses here have have joint injections, but the ones in harder work are getting the L and A every other month.[/QUOTE]

Um, then what do you think Legend is for???

[STF]

@Jocko;3359713

STF you wrote:

To me, that means that I am not a “serious” or “competive” dressage rider. If I were, I would have a horse that is bred for generations to do upper level dressage. A warmblood, for instance.

Just trying to clarify.

No, if you go back and read the 19 pages of bullshit here, you would see I said that any horse can do dressage but some horses based on conformation will max out quicker than others.
Goals are set by the person and if the persons goals are 2nd level or 4th level and below are great. Hell, even if someone wanted to do a GP test and get a 30 or below just to say they did it as a goal, then horay for them.
The OP asked if the breed was known to be competetive at mid levels and above. THAT is what we were responding to. Not all the crap in between of the DraftDefendersUnit.

[STF]

@elctrnc;3359721

Um, then what do you think Legend is for???

Its being used as a PREVENTATIVE to help them not get injured. Do your homework.:winkgrin:

[elctrnc]

[QUOTE=STF;3359728]
Its being used as a PREVENTATIVE to help them not get injured. Do your homework.:winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

If you inject it into a joint, then it is a “joint injection.” Legend is typically injected into a joint. Now if you are not injecting Legend into a joint, I would be interested to hear what you do. Care to enlighten me?

[STF]

No, I dont care to enlighten someone who thinks Legend is injected into the joint, but Thank you.

[Ajierene]

[QUOTE=mishmash;3359709]
50% Perch, 50% TB.
Two are at PSG, 1 at I2, preparing to debut at GP

I have seen some poor TB/Perch crosses and full drafts, but have also seen some lovely and talented ones.
I have seen some poor WBs, but also seen some lovely and talented ones.
You just cant make a broad generalization based on the breed of the horse…[/QUOTE]

I will never understand why people use crosses to prove that the purebred can do the job at the upper levels. You think maybe the thoroughbred influence is helping out these horses? Or is it all the Percheron and the thoroughbred half is dormant? You got a good mix of ‘cold’ and ‘hot’ blood and therefore you created a nice few warmbloods for yourself. If you look at the histories of the warmblood (those that are young enough to be able to be traced back to their foundations) you will see the heavier horses being crossed with hot bloods (either thoroughbreds or arabians, or both) to create the warmblood.

The majority of the warmblood breeds were designed for cavalry use in the military. Dressage came from the training of military horses. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the warmblood would be the best fit for dressage.

Thomas - you mentioned the draft shows in England. I think there is a disconnect between the UK draft circuit and the US draft circuit. As someone mentioned in another thread, there are riding classes in various draft circuits. I do not think this is the case in the UK. It seems in the UK, they emphasize the original intent of each breed while in the US, they want their special breed to be versatile and able to do anything. I see this with just about any breed enthusiast in the US, whether it be a draft, quarter horse, arabian, walker, whatever. Some breeds were bred to be more versatile, but others were not.

In the US, I see a lot of “I love my breed, therefore they can do anything” and when you look at the individual (competing somewhere that the breed was not meant to compete in) compared to the breed standard - while the individual is registered and full blood, they do not hold up as well against the breed standard, but this does not seem to bother the star-struck owner.