Rileyt, when/if you ever develop reading comprehension skills, come back and figure out that my horse is in full-time training with an FEI trainer. You can argue with him about what level my horse is at and what he is good at.
Let me reiterate. You’ve never seen my horse, met me, met my trainer, seen me ride, seen my trainer ride, or in any other way developed any real understanding of what my horse is or isn’t doing.
Right?
“schooling first level” comments - sorry, ginger, you got what i said entirely wrong, mostly because i didn’t spell it out more obviously - people say it alot, but I don’t assume it means anything in particular til i actually see it - i said it because in ambrey’s case in particular, i haven’t seen any pictures that indicate the horse is schooling first level.
"and doing lateral movements. sorry I like to work classically for the joy of the art not to prove how fast I can bring a horse along. Sorry to offend your sense of the sport. "
You can insult all you want, my point stands. I have no interest in ‘proving how fast I can bring a horse along’ and i don’t think you should either, what i don’t see is anything that indicates ambrey’s horse is doing what she says, either. i think it’s somewhat of an exaggeration, but i sure would like to see how that looks in a pelham.
People try to make ‘riding classically’ mean a LOT of things.
‘Riding classically’ doesn’t mean rushing a horse, but it doesn’t mean doing the same thing over and over. The trianing has a pattern and a progression, with each step built on the step before - not just doing patterns or things from a test, but doing them correctly.
‘Riding classically’ also means progression, and that doesn’t mean being afraid to try the next thing or not knowing or learning how.
Where did the term ‘laterals’ ever evolve? :winkgrin: Yes, I have heard it before. I just don’t think it really is very explanatory or specific.
It isn’t about going sideways. There are several phases to learning ‘laterals’ :eek:
The first is the basic work on the turn on the forehand, if needed, and then the circle.
The next is the most rudimentary leg yield work.
The next is shoulder fore, position fore.
The next is working on shoulder in and smaller circles.
The next is working on turns on the haunches and haunches in.
The next is the most rudimentary half passes.
The next is the renvers.
The next is half pass requiring more collection, and the pirouettes (pirouettes are in collected gaits).
Then comes increasingly difficult work such as the zig zags in canter.
So to talk about ‘perfecting laterals at first level’ makes no sense.
The two track work is not at its peak until grand prix. It is developed all thru the course of the dressage training, in gradual steps.
Too, the only ‘laterals’ required at first level are very, very basic leg yields.
Even at second level the ‘laterals’ are still very much a start.
“No, it means he’s perfecting his laterals while working on his balance and straightness, and that he hasn’t competed that level yet.”
That isn’t what ‘schooling first level’ means. It means the horse has mastered intro and training level, demonstrates thrusting power, acceptance of the bit, forward activity, and would score decently on a training level test 3 and 4, performing shallow canter serpentines, 20 meter circles in both directions, transitions, working gaits, stretching down, etc. He has mastered that.
And that today, he is schooling leg yields, lengthening at the trot and canter, medium walk, counter canter single loops, and quite a bit more thrusting power, activity, suppleness and more than accepting the bit is expected.
And while he’s doing that, he’s being introduced to the new skills at 2nd"
That would mean he is also currently schooling medium and collected trot and canter, simple change of lead, turns on the haunches, renvers, shoulder in, walk canter transitions.
Ambrey, I’ve seen a picture of you ride. (Wasn’t that you on the palomino a few threads back?) As they say, a picture is worth 1000 words.
And presumably, the opinions you’re expressing here are your own, and not those of your FEI level trainer?
You take issue with my post, but don’t seem to actually contest my conclusion.
For someone who is spouting off so much about what it takes to get a horse to the upper levels, I feel pretty confident in saying you have no idea what you’re talking about.
An FEI dressage trainer (I’ll assume this means he or she has decades of dressage experience training horses from breaking to Grand Prix competition, bringing his and many other’s horses to successful competitive careers performing correct dressage and scoring better than the national mean, at PSG, I1, I2, and Grand Prix).
Who trains dressage horses in a Pelham.
And in just a couple months, has green draft horses working at second level.
I am fascinated.
“I don’t think my horse is probably indicative of what’s probable if you breed a percheron to a QH. But he’s certainly indicative of what’s possible (and I’m sure there are others even more talented than he is out there.)”
That is a good comment… because it is exactly what we’re talking about all along. When you’re talking about a breed, we are mostly talking about the probable… because we are trying to draw a superficial but sound conclusion based on the type which the breed, or a cross breed offers.
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3360122]
Nope, the original question veered off to separate subjects within the first page. The concept of purpose-bred crosses was brought up around page 14, I think.
The OP was about Belgians. Forrest Hill is Percherons. Not even the same breed :)[/QUOTE]
HA! You are absolutely correct…I am the fool trying to stay on topic…everyone else has diverged. I should know better than that!
Until he has scored well in a competition, I’m not willing to say he has “mastered” any level. Only that he is schooling at a certain level. If you choose to believe that I have a crappy trainer who is schooling him second lvl even though he can’t do a TL test, go for it.
Unless you take the pelham out of his mouth, I feel quite confident that he won’t be scoring at all at competitions.
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3360280]
Until he has scored well in a competition, I’m not willing to say he has “mastered” any level. Only that he is schooling at a certain level. If you choose to believe that I have a crappy trainer who is schooling him second lvl even though he can’t do a TL test, go for it.[/QUOTE]
Was this in response to MY post? Because if it was, I wasn’t asking about your HORSE (unless he’s the one who’s been doing all the posting here) – but I think you knew that already.
[QUOTE=Roan;3359681]
You said Iberian horses, didn’t you?
Lipizzaners ARE Iberian horses. They took Spanish horses, Andalusians, Barbs and Berbers bred them to the local Karst horses. The Karst were small, white, hardy, high stepping horses. Very tough cookies. Eventually there were six stallion lines with ONE being an Arab: Siglavy.
This is why it’s called the Spanish Riding School – the horses are Spanish in descent.
And I’m saying you’re incorrect. Traditional Lipizzaners are bred for advanced High School movements, which is far beyond what WBs can do. So their domination must be something else, no? Flashiness? Size? Availability? Pick any two and you’d win.
They have awesome extensions and are flashy. Most of them can’t sit worth a peanut, IMO. They’re good up to the point that competitive dressage stops, but no further.
Incorrect. If you look at the NUMBERS of Lipizzaners showing dressage versus the NUMBERS of WB showing dressage, then look at their levels, I think you’d be a little surprised. There are less than 4,000 Lipizzaners in the world. About 2,000 of them are in North America. Those numbers are very recent, btw. After WWII there were ~250 Lipizzaners left in the world.
I’ll be generous – let’s say out of those 2,000 horses in North American 25 of them are currently being shown in competitive dressage. Out of those 25, I’d say 4 are showing 4th and up.
Radomly pick 25 WBs currently showing in dressage. How many are showing 4th and up?
It’s a numbers game.
Lower level stuff, you mean? High School and the Airs are part of dressage, whether or not they are used in competition or not 
Eileen[/QUOTE]
Roan, you make about as much sense as a fish on a bicycle.
And again, nowhere did I say Iberians aren’t built for Dressage. Don’t put words in my mouth. I said I didn’t buy into the idea that they are the only “true” Dressage horse.
I am talking about competitive dressage. How much experience with ANY Dressage do you have? Or are you just here to pick a fight?
That’s right. All of your information is from a) a [person] who boards at my stable and can’t even keep track of her enemies anymore, b) photgraphs taken of my 5th ride after a terrible accident in which I fractured 2 vertebrae, and… what? Photographs taken by my 8 year old son?
A picture is worth nothing. A picture is worth only what you know about the circumstances surrounding it.
And I’ve spouted off NOTHING about what it takes to get a horse to the upper levels, other than that it’s a lot of work and a lot of money.
All of my opinions on draft horses in general are my own. My opinions on my own horse include a lot of input from my trainer.
What next rileyt? Are you going to repeat fancyfree’s story about how I told her my horse was an FEI horse (never did) or that I was an FEI rider (never did) and she “exposed me to the world?”
I have always been honest that I’m a beginner, and have asked question in an effort to learn more. So what am I supposed to argue about? That I’m riding at training level? No argument there. What does that have to do with what my horse is training at?
Many people at UDBB saw videos of Smokey when he first started training in March. I have posted many photographs. I have never, ever tried to hide my lack of knowledge or where I am (or where Smokey is) in training. I’ve never tried to make him something he’s not (although for some reason, people think being proud of him is the same as thinking he’s better than he is. I guess people have no concept that I can be proud of him just for being him!).
The only thing I have ever said is that I wouldn’t set limitations on how far I would go or Smokey would go. That was advice I got from Lewin’s trainer early on and I felt it was good. I was in my very first lesson with her and said “Oh, we’ll never be able to do all of that fancy stuff,” and she said “never say never.” So I don’t say never. I focus on the now, enjoy the journey, and worry very little about where we’ll end up.
:rolleyes:
Tell all of my trainer’s FEI students how he doesn’t know how to get horses into competition.
How many FEI horses have you trained from scratch, BTW? You seem to have an awful lot of ideas about how to train a horse properly.
Ambrey, lest you forget, I defended you (vigorously if I recall) against the poster who was making fun of you.
I have no problems with beginners, and no one should be ashamed of their riding level.
But the many pages of drivel and shouting you’ve been posting here was getting under my skin. Between the roaring, allegations of breed bias, and selective twisting of people’s words to create conflict where there is none… I have no choice but to conclude that A) you’re doing it on purpose because you have nothing better to do, or B) you’re doing it because you don’t understand the finer points of this conversation.
If you’re a beginner, fine, be a beginner. But perhaps it would behoove you to open your mind and consider what some other people are saying, since they seemingly have been doing this a lot longer than you.
What did I say back on page 4 of this thread?
We have three camps in these discussions, one of which is:
“2) The “Defenders of the Breed” camp. You’ve never met MY (insert breed here). He piaffes better than Ahlerich, and I use him for endurance riding on the weekends too!”
It seems you (and your… what 50+ postings on this thread?) have made my point perfectly. See Exhibit A.
I think you’re confusing other people’s posts with mine, rileyt.
There are about 5 of us posting on this thread. They are not all me. Nor do I share their opinions about everything. I don’t own a purebred draft. I have flat out said that I agree that WBs are better suited to Dressage than drafts.
I had a debate with STF about whether draft cross breeding programs could be effective, based entirely on the fact that there is an example of a successful one. I asked some questions about conformation. I disagreed with some blanket statements. I snarked at egontoast. That’s all. So far, the only things I “said” that made people mad weren’t even really things I said.
[QUOTE=slc2;3360219]
“schooling first level” comments - sorry, ginger
Sorry to come back at you so hard core. I misinterpreted your intentions with your comment. To explain myself better we are not perfecting anything I’m not sure that is even possible with any horse. When you train a horse for dressage that may not have the best body make up for dressage sometimes you have to work on other movement while your waiting your horse to develop the strength to do other work in a particular level. In my case and I think most honest draft owners working in dressage will agree. That a draft has two rhythmic gates if you lucky which is walk and trot. Drafts will canter but you have to work with their body type and let that gate develop to the horses ability. So while Rocco can compete at intro and has all of the corrects movements at the trot for training his canter needs to develop. Through lateral movements and transitions he has developed the strength now to hold a soft canter to the right but not the left yet. There are spots but not it is consistent to the left. The canter is close enough now that training will be no problem next season. So to keep Rocco interested I do not hammer the canter issue so we do walk and trot work at higher levels the keep the progression. The reality is that my horse gets high 50’s low 60’s and that is where he will most likely stay because already he competes with young very nice moving wbs. But that is ok, I have never experienced breed bias at horse shows in fact the judges love Rocco. So far the scores have reflected mine and Rocco’s ability. Which for a draft is really good but compared to a thoroughbred or a warm blood. So Rocco and I have to rely on being correct and presenting a pleasant picture in our tests.
:uhoh:PLEASE…if I EVER think about starting another thread, PLEASE SOMEBODY STOP ME!!! My apologies, I had NO IDEA that due to the ramblings of my mind being put into writing, that we would all wade through 22 FREAKIN PAGES of mostly argumentative verbage. :dead:
I’m off to go “sit” in my dressage saddle and just daydream about doing FEI level dressage on my purebred Arab (see, I also ride one of those “off” breeds that probably isn’t suitable for dressage either. Thank God, she was at least bred to be a riding horse…
)
Seriously, thanks to all who attempted to provide constructive, unbiased appraisals on my original question. I didn’t mean to start the “Breed Wars”. I think the only thing I did “right” was to start a post on something that is more controversial than Anky and rollkur…
Ginger, how big is Rocco?
I think one area in which the QH blood did help Smokey is in his canter. It has never been an issue for him at all (well, of course he needed training to do nice, balanced canter and smooth transitions, but he started out already cantering pretty comfortably).
But he is also really not that huge by draft standards, at 16.3hh and 1500 lbs.
Rocco is the working standard for a Belgian draft. He is 15.3 1800 lbs. Rocco was bred by the Amish and Worked on a farm for a good part of his life. So he is a true example that there is a difference between a working Belgian and a Show Belgian. I will also say that Rocco is just put togeather really well. He does have a big neck but it is in proportion to his body he has a nice slope to his shoulders and a short back with a strong large butt. His legs are big enough to hold his body and not excessively long or gangly. Working Belgians are known for smaller heads he has a size 5 mouth. All of my tack is off the shelf. Full size German bridle and a 33cm prestige saddle until I sold it and bought a 34cm Thornhill.
Gosh, thanks! 
And again, nowhere did I say Iberians aren’t built for Dressage. Don’t put words in my mouth. I said I didn’t buy into the idea that they are the only “true” Dressage horse.
Okay, I will concede that I went off on a tangent a wee tad, however, you said:
[INDENT]
I always get a kick out of the claim that the Iberians are the “true” dressage horses. Allrightythen. The FACT is that the European Warmblood horses DOMINATE Dressage. (Show Jumping as well) They have for years and will continue to do so. Why? Because they are bred and built for sport and are VERY GOOD at it Just like Quarter Horses will ALWAYS dominate Barrel Racing. . . .
[/INDENT]
You said that WBs dominate the sport because they are built for it. You said that they dominate and will continue to do so.
I say “neigh!”. I say that lumping WBs with Iberians as “true” dressage horses is akin to saying that Harold Robbins is equal to F. Scott Fitzgerald. While I bet Mr. Robbins has sold a lot more books than F. Scott Fitzgerald, which one is the true literary genius?
WBs as a whole cannot do the whole enchilada, so how are they “true” dressage horses? Because they dominate the competitive aspect of the sport? Is that a good guideline?
I am talking about competitive dressage. How much experience with ANY Dressage do you have? Or are you just here to pick a fight?
Lemme check . . . yah, this is CoTH, so I must be here to pick a fight
I’m a classical student. Rather new, actually. I like Lipzzaners. I own a Lipizzaner mare. I study classical history and even more Lipizzaner history. I used to ride and train stock horses way back in the dark ages.
Oh, and your comment on QHs and barrel racing is totally out there. They, like WBs, dominate because of NUMBERS. Any talented Paint horse or Appy could easily compete with a talented QH at barrel racing. Geez.
Eileen
[QUOTE=Strictly Classical;3360563]
:uhoh:PLEASE…if I EVER think about starting another thread, PLEASE SOMEBODY STOP ME!!! My apologies, I had NO IDEA that due to the ramblings of my mind being put into writing, that we would all wade through 22 FREAKIN PAGES of mostly argumentative verbage. :dead:. . .[/QUOTE]Actually, now would be the best time for you to start another thread with your question since everyone is preoccupied with this one.
Eileen
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