No, that would have been yesterday. We’ve already exhausted our obsession and are ready to move on to her next post.
Just waiting patiently.
Ambrey. . .
I’m rather curious – only that, honest – but WHY does your trainer have Smokey in a Pelham? Is he trying to “soften” him or something? Make him listen?
Some people who train with the more Portuguese schools do start their horses in a double as soon as they can. But not a Pelham. I’m just curious as to the reasoning here.
Eileen
And curiosity killed the cat, doncha know 
You know, it’s just a tool, like draw reins and all the other things that the masters eschewed. Yes, it’s to soften him and try to get him to stretch a bit more. He switches him back and forth, to make sure the results are still there with the snaffle. He is a combined trainer, so although he is pretty classical in his dressage methods, he rode hunters and jumpers for years (still does) and falls back to those tools as well sometimes.
At our stable, pelhams are sometimes seen on dressage horses in training, with both trainers. It’s one of the skeletons in our closet We actually stand around talking about how the classicists would be having heart attacks. At least the guy with the draw reins left!
p.s. I’ve missed seeing you around, Roan! Do I really need to make a post every now and again claiming that WBs are superior to iberians in dressage to get you to post?
This is unbelievable:no:
:rolleyes:
Give it up. We’ve all bowed to your superior horseflesh, training and riding ability, breeding ability, and whatever else you want to assert superiority in. Just let us live our poor pathetic lives with our poor pathetic non-dressage horses in our poor pathetic improper bits. Be happy you don’t have to be us, because clearly you’d be miserable given such poor tools to work with.
[QUOTE=Donella;3360716]
This is unbelievable:no:[/QUOTE]
Welcome to the real world! :lol:
A pelham is a leverage bit, used on strong horses and is a bastard version of the double bridle. It does nothing to SOFTEN a horse and does everything to stuff a strong horse into a frame by using the leverage to make him appear soft.
It’s one thing to use a pelham temporarily on a strong horse or a runaway, so you can regain control then work to bit down. It’s another to slap one on a dressage horse and say he’s schooling 1st level. It does not translate to the snaffle easily and movements that you might be able to force out of the horse using the pelham will be impossible in a snaffle. Not to mention you can’t show the horse in a pelham. It’s not about going against “classical” riding, it’s about going against correct riding. It’s not about making fun of you because you’re riding a draft horse in a pelham, it’s about educating you as to why the pelham is being used and why it is not the correct bit for dressage.
I understand hunting, eventing, or jumping a horse in a pelham but at home in the dressage ring he needs to go in his snaffle. Many people who do jump in a stronger bit often do so at shows and school in a snaffle at home. Nobody schools in a pelham at home and expects to stay in the arena in a snaffle!
[QUOTE=Strictly Classical;3360563]
:uhoh:PLEASE…if I EVER think about starting another thread, PLEASE SOMEBODY STOP ME!!! My apologies, I had NO IDEA that due to the ramblings of my mind being put into writing, that we would all wade through 22 FREAKIN PAGES of mostly argumentative verbage. :dead:
I’m off to go “sit” in my dressage saddle and just daydream about doing FEI level dressage on my purebred Arab (see, I also ride one of those “off” breeds that probably isn’t suitable for dressage either. Thank God, she was at least bred to be a riding horse…
)
Seriously, thanks to all who attempted to provide constructive, unbiased appraisals on my original question. I didn’t mean to start the “Breed Wars”. I think the only thing I did “right” was to start a post on something that is more controversial than Anky and rollkur…[/QUOTE]
Welcome to COTH. :winkgrin: I was wondering what you were thinking of all of this.
"if i ever…somebody stop me!’ – Strictly Classical
I hope you don’t really not post. I have an idea, that involves all menopausal and perimenopausal posts being marked with a - what…I dunno … a red ribbon (same as for kicking horse’s tail) and you can skip them all…LOL!
slc - actually, I was making a half-assed attempt at smart-aleck humor! I probably will post something again - against my better judgement! :eek:
Roan wrote: " Actually, now would be the best time for you to start another thread with your question since everyone is preoccupied with this one."
Roan - I only have one question: “You’ve GOT to be KIDDING - RIGHT!!!:uhoh:”
Thank you for proving that one really will read what one wants to read rather than what is written. You are exactly right. On your planet, where my horse really doesn’t know anything and you guys are always right, he doesn’t actually know how to go in a snaffle. All of his skills are based on being “stuffed into a frame.”
I’d like you to come down here and try to “stuff” my horse “in a frame.” I’ll give you an 8" shank curb to do it if you’d like. Can I take pictures?
OK, it’s true. My horse has never been ridden in a snaffle. If you don’t put a 5" shank and a curb chain on him, his head drags the ground. His feet weigh 100 lbs each and he can’t pick them up. We have to use a bulldozer to do laterals.
Everything I’ve said about my trainer knowing what he’s doing is a complete lie. He put him in a pelham the first day he got him. Then he put draw reins on the pelham, and after that didn’t work he had his neck surgically fixed into frame. I asked about all that “reaching into contact” stuff, but he says that’s for sissies. Real men don’t need contact.
And all of this must be true because you guys can tell by a picture that my horse couldn’t possibly do 2nd level work. And you all know this because you’re EXPERIENCED. And on the off chance that we ever get to a show and score well, you’ll know it’s because of pro-off-breed bias, because you guys are never wrong about anyone or anything.
Did I miss anything?
p.s. for those really curious and not just interested in further proving to yourself that my horse sucks, I suck, and my trainer sucks, the pelham was not the basis of his training. It’s a tool my trainer is using right now to accomplish something.
[QUOTE=Strictly Classical;3360980]
. . .
Roan - I only have one question: “You’ve GOT to be KIDDING - RIGHT!!!:uhoh:”[/QUOTE]No, not really. It worked last time someone asked a controversial question like yours. Maybe it will work again?
Might be worth a try.
As for you and your Arab – does he have talent? If yes, then proceed to GO and ignore this place. Although I do believe that horses should be used for what they are bred (built) for, every breed has an exception. IMO it doesn’t hurt to try.
The only person who can really answer this question is you, your horse, and your trainer.
Eileen
That’s interesting. My trainer, also, is combined, but she would never put a green horse in a Pelham. the only horses on her place that I’ve seen in Pelhams are the intermediate jumper ponies. All the other horses, dressage, jumping or otherwise, use snaffles. There are a couple in gag bits for shows, but that’s about it.
At our stable, pelhams are sometimes seen on dressage horses in training, with both trainers. It’s one of the skeletons in our closet
Yah, the ODGs are probably rolling in their graves. Double – in schooled hands – yah, but never a Pelham.
p.s. I’ve missed seeing you around, Roan! Do I really need to make a post every now and again claiming that WBs are superior to iberians in dressage to get you to post?
Hah! I just get a bee in my bonnet about that. WBs are great and they do a good job in competitive dressage, but I just don’t like seeing them labeled as “true” dressage horses.
As for posting – I just haven’t had the time. I run two boards myself, plus my Lipizzaner site, plus the other non-horsey sites I post on, plus work, riding, kids, blah blah 
Eileen
Id rather poke my eyes out with tootpicks than continue to debate this topic. Thank ya thou!! :winkgrin:
Dont turn it personal, its not worth it. Not this crap.
Roan, you make about as much sense as a fish on a bicycle.
You must not watch Sponge Bob Square Pants, Patty!!! :lol:
This was really uncalled for.
And you wonder why people get snarky.
Stop it. Debate with class or back out of the converstaion.
Yep, I was surprised too.
To be honest, though, Smokey is very comfortable in a pelham, and always has been. I have no idea why, he just likes them. Even if you don’t touch the curb rein, he doesn’t bicker with his bit as much as with a snaffle- I thought maybe it was the cheekpieces, but I tried a baucher and he still tends to chew on it. I’ve had him in two different types of pelhams, and he really liked both of them.
I don’t find he goes much different in the pelham or the snaffle. He goes really well in either. And he goes much better in both for my trainer.
You know, when I put my pony in h/j training the first bit they put him in was this bizarre elevator thing. I ride him in a snaffle too. Go figure.
[QUOTE=STF;3361049]
You must not watch Sponge Bob Square Pants, Patty!!! :lol:[/QUOTE]
My bad :o. Now my secret is out:eek:.
Roan - you just HAD to ask me a question about the Arab didn’t you? 
Let me preface this by saying that she’s my girl and we share a really tight bond. I love this mare to death; I’ve ridden a little of everything - including some ginormous warmbloods - and I just love my little girl best.
I think she has far more talent than I know how to bring out in her. here is a link to a photo posted on webshots: http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2768466450057041341ZcJeWJ?vhost=good-times
She is not an easy ride. She is super sensitive and for the longest time we had real issues in learning to come to the bit - to be “on the bit”. With the help of a wonderful coach (who has respected my wishes to learn to train this horse myself) we have slowly but surely made progress.
I don’t care much for showing. Its alright and I will show someday, but right now I am enjoying the learning process of what it takes to bring a sensitive, intelligent horse-soul along.
In the photo I posted, the mare got up on the wrong side of the stall that morning. She was wired, and tense - wanting to be out in the pasture with her buddies. She gave me a workout that morning, and you will notice in the pictures that she is a bit tense. That is one of those “Araby traits” that you have to deal with in working with her in dressage work especially. She can invert and get all tense at a moments notice. I have to literally ride every blessed stride. If I let my guard down for one moment, she is off on her own agenda. She is not an easy ride, and to ride her well works makes you really engage your brain (and core)! When the work is good it is really good; when its bad it can be really bad, but I love every minute of it. I wouldn’t trade her for the world…
To each his own, ride what you love. Whether it is a Belgian Draft, a Belgian warmblood, an Arab, or one of those drafts with the “H” stamped on its butt (thanks slc - I loved that :lol:) you have to be aware of the limitations of each. You also have to look at the individual strengths. No matter what the breed of horse, when the work gets to the point that its no longer easy for them to produce the movement (“level” is irrelevant here) thats the point, in my opinion, when its unfair to keep asking for more. Not all WB’s are going to be Olympic/international quality horses - the vast majority of them will not be. Same goes for other breeds. The thing that prompted this original thread was not to present a forum to pick on full blooded drafts. Rather, it was to simply take an objective look at the breed standards of conformation and perhaps temperament and come to a consensus on their suitability for the more collected work. Personally, I think its a bit unfair for a breeder of the heavy, cart pulling Belgian Drafts to begin advertising their stock as being suitable for dressage. I quote from this particular breeders website: “our horses are being rained in the highest levels of dressage - the Haute Ecole”. Now I don’t know much about drafts, but I do know that statement doesn’t hold water. Any prospective buyer who buys into that line is doing just that - buying a line of BS. Sorry, I don’t want to make anyone mad, but that just simply can not be true. If I saw a full blooded Belgian doing a capriole, or levade, I think I would fall over dead. :dead:
If any of you really knew me, you would know that as long as I have been old enough to know what a horse was, I have been in love with all them - all breeds - all sizes. That includes everything from Minis & Shetland ponies to the biggest drafts around. I don’t think there is a breed prejudiced bone in my body. I am, however, a realist - when it comes to any breed, even my own beloved Arab.
