They get pending approval and then all you have to do is get one score of 62% or higher at TRAINING level dressage (and there are other disiplines too that can count)…
But they do NOT require inspection.
any breed stock or combination thereof, except 100% hot- blood (Thoroughbred or Arabian) or 100% cold-blood (draft breeds).
This is their requirement.
That will get the horse registered but not approved for breeding.
But that’s not a breeding registry, just a registry. And the 62% at TL is still more than your initial implication that they require nothing.
Approval (for breeding) requires inspection, or 63% at 3rd level, or other things (inspection, approvals of get, etc). They also have a rating program for approved horses.
That still does not makes sense…“approval for breed” since I could breed anything to whatever and still do the same route and get papers on anything that was not inspected. So, approval for breeding does not make sense.
You go though the paperwork process, you get your scores, turn them in - bingo you get full registration papers. Then… I could that horse (say being a mare) and breed her and do the same thing all over again and STILL get full papers. Approval for breeding is just a term there since there are many many holes in the program to get around it.
With the other registires that require inspection, you DONT get around it. Mare HAVE to be inspected and put into the books/graded. Then the foals are graded. That is the only way to be able to track what the stallion and mare lines are producing. AWS is like the online degree program, IMO. :lol:
Now, what that said, I have three horses that ARE AWS, I just cant say I agree with their quality control program, or lack of.
Not until you train them and show them to training level.
If you want registered babies, you need inspections and approved breeding.
So your saying you dont get full papers after turning in your scores? It does not say anywhere in the paperwork that a horse has to be seen my inspectors?
It says you get full registry papers after you submit your scores.
I believe it’s similar to WBs except for the part where you can register an adult horse based on scores. Babies are only registered if they are a) from approved parents, or b) inspected.
So registered horses are either from approved parents, inspected as babies, or passed the performance requirement.
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3353923]
You determined that her horse isn’t talented from a PICTURE?
Sheesh.
I rest my case (and rileyt, this is exactly my point earlier).
FWIW, around here 70+ at 4th is a very expensive horse with a very talented rider (I know, we have such a combo at the barn, actually in Lewin’s training barn, and she’s phenominal. Unless you are independently wealthy, you can’t afford that horse, and she is one of the most talented riders I’ve ever seen).[/QUOTE]
Ambrey, after you have more experience under your belt perhaps you too will begin to see it.
A good judge of horses can indeed “see” much from a picture. Body shape, for instance has much to do with performance. Conformation determines how athletic a horse will be. These are things a breeder puts a lot of time into learning.
STF, you have done a wonderful job trying to explain it.
And, like STF has also said, we too have worked with many people with inapproriate horses who DO want to get to the upper levels. Very few people want to spend the $$$ to compete, only to be stuck at Training level. We have worked with several Draft and Draft crosses. We have a client in our barn now, with a Belgin/TB cross. He is a nice horse, very pretty and sweet. Not huge but very drafty in his “shape”. Working over his back, swinging and staying connected are hard for him. He is very stiff and does not want to bend. Is he improving?? Yes, he is, but everything is so much harder for him than for a horse that is built and bred for it.
Since the OP question was about Belgians for Dressage, I would say no, IF YOUR GOAL IS BEING COMPETITIVE ABOVE FIRST LEVEL. Yes, Dressage is good for all horses, but not all horses are going to be good at Dressage! It’s not breed bias, it’s something some of us have learned through EXPERIENCE.
Now if your goal is to just enjoy a BIG horse and have fun, buy all means go for it. But, IMO expecting ANY horse to do a job they are not built to do, is NOT FAIR to the horse.
[QUOTE=NoDQhere;3355993]
Now if your goal is to just enjoy a BIG horse and have fun, buy all means go for it. But, IMO expecting ANY horse to do a job they are not built to do, is NOT FAIR to the horse.[/QUOTE]
If it is unfair why do we allow it? Why not ban them from shows? Are you really concerned about animal welfare, or do you just feel uncomfortable seeing different types of horses in dressage?
These emotional arguments and fear tactics have no factual basis behind them. Dressage is benefiting countless “inappropriate” horses. The horses do not feel embarrassed or out of place. And the people who work with them are not wasting their time or settling.
[QUOTE=canticle;3356028]
If it is unfair why do we allow it? Why not ban them from shows? Are you really concerned about animal welfare, or do you just feel uncomfortable seeing different types of horses in dressage?
These emotional arguments and fear tactics have no factual basis behind them. Dressage is benefiting countless “inappropriate” horses. The horses do not feel embarrassed or out of place. And the people who work with them are not wasting their time or settling.[/QUOTE]
Canticle, I did say IMO (in my opinion) which I am entitled to. I have also had enough EXPERIENCE over the years to be able to “read” horses fairly well.
Dressage basics aren’t going to hurt any horse, we all know that. And horses don’t feel embarassment. The fact is that horses don’t care what we do with them (as long as we feed them :lol:) UNTIL you get to the point where you are forcing them to do something that is hard for them to do. Then they do make it clear.
Working with horses (again IMO) is never a waste of time. But I do think it is the riders responsibility to be honest about what their horse is capable of, whatever the breed.
NoDQ, you have a pretty high opinion of your ability to predict such things. There’s a book excerpt on this thread from TOB:
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=132800&highlight=
that might interest you. And I always love exvet’s pictures as an illustration.
I am really curious to understand how people find what we are doing “unfair to the horse.” What is FAIR to a horse? Only easy work? Only work that doesn’t physically challenge him? How many WBs do you know that were trained in dressage and were questionably sound in their teens? Was that work unfair to them?
Seriously, do you think my horse would rather be owned by an Amish guy and pulling a plow? Do you think he is bemoaning his lot in life every evening as he gets his pile o’ carrots and scratches?
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3356120]
Perhaps you missed the thread…
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=156248[/QUOTE]
And your point??? Judging a rider from a single picture is hardly the same thing as judging conformation. :rolleyes:
It is if you’re using it to tell someone else that their horse has no talent for dressage. I mean, really. You can say what you believe his conformational challenges are, but judging talent?
My trainer saw my horse many times before he got on him. He said “based on his build, I would have expected him to be kind of clunky, but he’s actually very light and balanced and very agile and responsive.” And he’d SEEN the horse IN PERSON. Of course, he didn’t tell me before he started riding him that he thought he was a dud. He would have felt kind of silly if he had (guess he probably has enough experience not to make those kinds of snap judgements, huh?).
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3356136]
NoDQ, you have a pretty high opinion of your ability to predict such things. There’s a book excerpt on this thread from TOB:
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=132800&highlight=
that might interest you. And I always love exvet’s pictures as an illustration.
I am really curious to understand how people find what we are doing “unfair to the horse.” What is FAIR to a horse? Only easy work? Only work that doesn’t physically challenge him? How many WBs do you know that were trained in dressage and were questionably sound in their teens? Was that work unfair to them?
Seriously, do you think my horse would rather be owned by an Amish guy and pulling a plow? Do you think he is bemoaning his lot in life every evening as he gets his pile o’ carrots and scratches?[/QUOTE]
I have invested much in “training my eye”, and yes, do put a lot of stock in seeing “form to function”.
As far as fair or unfair, you won’t get this until you actually have some experience under your belt. As I’ve already said, IN MY OPINION and based on my experience, a horse bred and correctly conformed will have an easier time ABOVE FIRST LEVEL.
I don’t know any Warmbloods with soundness issues. Our own stallion was competing at GP at 20 and retired without a pimple on him. And he never required ANY mantainence drugs either. A good friend is riding a 22 year old Hanoverian at GP. Does that mean I think all Warmbloods will stay sound. Of course not! But that has been my EXPERIENCE. You see, some of us base our opinions on EXPERIENCE, not just the way we want things to be!
Way to dismiss my questions. Appealing to your own greater knowledge is all well and good, but if you don’t really have good reasoning behind your belief what does it mean?
The fact that it’s easier for a WB makes it unfair to a draft… how?
And my horse is schooling 2nd lvl movements with very little trouble. He is coming up off his forehand, carrying himself, and moving along perfectly well (his training is more sporadic lately because my trainer is swamped). My trainer has not yet found his limit, and he’ll let me know when we do. Based on his mention of a double, I guess he figures we’ll make it to third at least 
And I am guessing that your analysis would have told you that he’d never make it past first, maybe even training level (that “laterally stiff” stuff).
Again, we’re not talking generalities, but applying those generalities to specific horses. Not “all horses built like mine can do this,” but “can you tell based on a picture what a horse can do?”
Here’s my best picture showing all of his conformational faults (actually he’s not as bad as it looks here, but you can see where he falls short).
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/200805-19-Lightning138.jpg
eta: I have a real shortage of even moderately capable photographers in my family. Most of my decent pictures were taken by my 8 year old son. So, judging my horses from photographs is severely misleading 
No, again.
AWS rule is -
"
Eligibility for Registration
To be eligible for registration a horse/pony can be of any breed stock or combination thereof, except 100% hot- blood (Thoroughbred or Arabian) or 100% cold-blood (draft breeds). (see Nomination below).
Eligibility for Nomination
To be eligible for nomination a horse/pony can be 100% hot-blood (Thoroughbred or Arabian) or 100% cold-blood (draft breeds). All AWS benefits are the same as registered warmbloods.
Eligibility for Recording
To be eligible for recording the horse/pony has been previously registered with another registry. All AWS benefits are the same as registered warmbloods. "
There is no requirement for inspection. Breed stock is advised to be looked at but not required.
Here is the requirement in detail -
http://www.americanwarmblood.org/requirements/index.htm
They dont require for a mare to be approved, nor even for a stallion to be approved as long as the bloodlines meet the above. As long as its met, you are eligble for registration.
I could breed anything on the farm and send in the paperwork and get pending papers and then full papers after I turn in preformance scores. It does not even have to be out of breeding approved parent as long as it meets what is written above and turns in a score of -
"
[LIST=1]
Fear tactics how??? What are you talking about?
I am really curious to understand how people find what we are doing “unfair to the horse.” What is FAIR to a horse? Only easy work? Only work that doesn’t physically challenge him? How many WBs do you know that were trained in dressage and were questionably sound in their teens? Was that work unfair to them?
Its not unfair to the point of what your thinking. What were saying is that the majority of drafts are built to PULL, not sit and elevate which is needed for 2nd level and above = collecetive gaits. They are just not built for collective gaits. Can some do it? Yes… but what some would consider nice and supple, some others may not. If a horse has to change it body to do the job, its unfair to them. If they are stressing their back and hip to get under themself enough to sit, its unfair to them. That is what were saying. Asking a horse that is just not built for collective work is the point.
NOW… I have seen horses with horrible conformation do a GP test and do it well, but… those are few and in between as well.
STF, re-read my post:
Not until you train them and show them to training level.
If you want registered babies, you need inspections and approved breeding.
To get papers, you need to either
a) pass performance requirement (62% at TL).
b) pass inspection
c) have two APPROVED parents, not registered parents.
So, you can’t breed any two TL horses and get a registered baby.
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