Bloodlines in regards to dressage and dressage breeding

Last year, I had Sonesta older Feiner Stern/Waldorn mare here. SUPER mover. Anyway, a girlfriend of mine from FL was here and I threw her up there on her. She has ridden some decent horses but none really BRED for the gaits. She was amazed on how soft, supple and elastic the mare was as well as easy and soft to ride. Almost anybody could sit this mare BIG gaits, even a limited experiened AA rider.

Sorry, good breeding does count for a lot. Ive ridden the “OTTBS and the half and halfs”. Now Im blessed to have the real deal and its a huge difference, for ANY level of rider.

STF, you are so right on so many points :)! Breathing deeply here :lol:.

Wine if needed! Lots of Red wine!

Poor Patty. :cry:

Actually she gets what she deserves.

The POINT that I was trying to make, which sadly will be lost on this crowd, (and before being annoyingly sidetracked by NoDQHere) is that warmbloods are not the ONLY way to go to get good dressage horses. Look at what the Germans have done with GRPs in a relatively short time.

Not everyone wants a 17 hand monster. And a lot of the dressage warmbloods are very big.

This actually just came to mind, but we have a regular equine massage/ myofascial release lady come in who has worked with Dr Hilary Clayton amoung others. Really knowledgeable lady. Anyways, my trainers horse is a lovely Danish gelding whom she bought at 5. He was broke at five and at 6 years old won third level provincial champion in ontario (quite a competative area up here) at the CDI. He is now 7 and is ready to show PSG. His Piaffe and passage are starting to show much resemblance to Edward Gals Totilas, EVERYTHING is easy for this horse, its just fascinating to watch him. Lisa Wilcox was here a few weeks ago and rode him and thought he was “pretty darn nice!”. It sounds unreal, but it is not.

But what really struck me is that when our massage lady was working on him she said to me " I have never, in ten years, ever worked on a horse that has absolutely no issues, no tightness, no soreness whatsoever…this horse finds his job ridiculously easy". And its true. That is why he has progressed so far. Yeah, great training and management, but also, super inbred talent and a great mind.

Sherry M, great post. Exactly!

I dont think any of us said that, I know I didnt. I am not breed biased. I DO try to stay with the bloodlines that will make my life easier and my back hurt less, but…

Grayarabpony, you make me laugh. Do you realize that smaller Warmblood horses are being used in GRP breeding?

The biggest horse on this farm is 16.3. Our stallion Meisterwind is only 16 hands. We are not even trying to produce 17 handers.

Lastly, no one has said Warmbloods are the ONLY way to go. Just that some of us, in our experience, have found it an easier, more likely to succeed, way to go. Statistics do support this.

I would respectfully ask you to quit with the insults. I’ve been out of Jr. High for many years and have no intention of going back :).

It seems to me that the point was made several times that warmbloods are not the ONLY way to go to get good dressage horses, but that your odds increase if you look to horses bred for dressage. Such as warmbloods. Clearly, alot of people on this forum know alot about warmbloods bred for dressage (hence the number of warmblood stallions listed). I’m not sure why your impression of this thread is that “only warmbloods” can do dressage. I can’t find one post that says that.

The point of this thread is to discuss dressage and dressage breeding. Several people have mentioned arabians that produce offspring successful in dressage. To those complaining that this thread has a warmblood bias, why not start discussing those non-warmblood lines that produce good sport horses?

It is so funny too me about how these threads seem to devolve.

I know a bit about WB breeding and turf bred TBs. In a conversation like this, that is what I can contribute. I suspect that is the case for most people, they will contribute what they can. It is not that I think WBs are the only horses for dressage (even if I do think they are the best overall breed). This is a perfect opportunity the proponents of “off breeds” to chat them up and expand everyone’s knowledge of their bloodlines. I’d certainly like that. We don’t see that happening. But we are hearing a lot the traditional “how dare you dis my horse” complaints. Jealousy? Inferiority complex? Lack of knowledge? General unhappiness?

Oh well…

Oops J-Lu just saw your post. Sorry to be redundant.

Read a bit more closely then. :rolleyes:

But interestingly, I could not find one post where anyone was complaining about their horse being dissed. Certainly it wasn’t me. :o I’m not jealous of anyone here. I’m happy with my horses.

My point was not that you shouldn’t breed for dressage; it’s that, as everybody knows, you don’t always get what you want when you breed, and, occasionally fabulous horses turn up and who knows where they came from.

I don’t know much about Connemara lines, but I think that there’s a Dexter Leam Pondi son out there who’s a beautiful mover as well as a beautiful jumper – I think he could well be worth looking into for dressage as well as jumping breeding. His video has been posted on here a few times; he’s very young, just turning 5, and his name is Quitus de la Loue.

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Perhaps more to the point of the OP. We all tend to pick up our bloodline information in bits and pieces; a conversation overheard here, a view from the stands there, an article read somewhere else. The Werner Schockemöhle article I mentioned previously is one such piece of information, but there are many more. If you are interested in Hanoverian bloodlines, this link http://behindthebit.blogspot.com/search/label/warmblood%20bloodlines has a lot of good info and resources in one spot. I especially recommend the article by Dr. Ludwig Christmann.

My first introduction to horses bred for sport was the Connemara. A beautiful stallion, I think his name was Killcarnies Blazing Grayhound. I was just a little girl and this “pony” was incredible. He would jump a single pole set high enough that he “could” have gone under it! He fired my love of jumping.

[QUOTE=J-Lu;3770619]

The point of this thread is to discuss dressage and dressage breeding. Several people have mentioned arabians that produce offspring successful in dressage. To those complaining that this thread has a warmblood bias, why not start discussing those non-warmblood lines that produce good sport horses?[/QUOTE]

Part 1:

While I am not one of those who complained about WB bias (I still like WB’s and admire many things about the various WB registries and that system for producing sport horses), I am happy to discuss my little pieces of understanding of certain Arabian lines that I think are among the Arabian bloodlines that are capable of producing some good sport horses. I know that there are other lineages beside the ones I am using that have and can produce the traits desired in a sport horse, but my own knowledge (such as it is) is focused on the lines with which I have the most direct experience.

While chance played a role in my initial encounter with some individual Arabians that were of good sport horse type and then later with finding my young stallion as a foal, research into the bloodlines entered the process very early when I was leasing this little Arab mare that I started under saddle. She was 15 years old and had never been started, but she took to the training and to the interactions with me both on the ground and under saddle with ease and obvious pleasure. I had just sold my young incredibly talented KWPN gelding due to his difficult temperament (he was aggressive on the ground and aggressive with other horses; I could manage him, but working with him was not a joy) and had leased this mare as a way to have a horse to ride until I found my next “real” horse. This Arab mare was quick to learn and had excellent balance and natural athleticism. She was not for sale, so I started researching her lines and discovered that she came from a bloodline nick known as Double R (Rissalix plus the Skowronek sons Raffles and/or Raseyn) Double R horses were known for compact balanced bodies, good movement, great temperaments, and excellent work ethics. AM Quebec, the ATA approved Arabian stallion, is a classic example of Double R breeding. As I looked more deeply, I found that other lines within the Crabbet/CMK (Crabbet-Mayenesboro-Kellogg) group that often produced individuals that appealed to my eye and that had proven themselves in performance/sport. Before I bought my first Arabian, I’d already figured out what lines I seemed to like best and which of those lines seemed to nick well together. Breeding was not yet in my plans, I was just trying to understand what I wanted in an Arabian that was to be my next dressage horse. I started considering the idea of breeding when I discovered that many of the bloodlines that I liked were dying out. I found so many lovely horses that had not bred on and good breeding programs that were not continued --and that made me sad.

I eventually found a young mare that I liked and bought her. Here owner was dying of cancer, but was able to share photos and stories of 5 generations of this mare’s relatives on both sides of her pedigree. I could clearly see which ancestors had influenced her most and how many generations certain traits–both desirable and less desirable-- could be traced. This mare was the one of only a few representatives of her bloodlines that had not been outcrossed to “fad” bloodlines so I did think that I would like to breed her at some point.

Then I was given an extraordinary mare that I hoped to breed. Unfortunately, this fine mare turned out to be infertile (I exhausted all options with my repro vet to try for a foal including ET), but she really got me thinking that I wanted to do something to help preserve these bloodlines. Then I was sent a link to a filly out of a friend’s mare and on the same page was a colt that blew me away. I thought he might be the best dressage type Arabian I’d ever seen. Over the next 6 months, I kept visiting his page and was surprised to see that he was still for sale. I kept thinking it would be a shame if he didn’t get the opportunity to sire some sport type Arabians. So, having had no intention of ever owning a stallion, I started talking to his breeder. When he was 8 months old, I bought him. :slight_smile:

And I watched him grow up…

(2 foal photos, yearling, two year old, three year old)

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Part 2:

My young stallion is linebred to Indraff including two lines to the stallion, AM Sea Captain, a lineage that was mentioned by STF as having good movement and being of good sport horse type. I bought him on gut instinct, but I also really liked both his sire and (more importantly) his dam (through whom he has the two lines to AM Sea Captain). I place a high value of great dams. :slight_smile:

Before my young stallion prospect grew up , I started acquiring a few mares that I thought would cross well with him. I went for lines that had produced successful dressage Arabians. In addition to the Double R --where I particularly like the Rissalix to come down through Count Dorsaz (twice winner of the UK"s Winston Churchil Cup for best riding horse of any breed) and/or Ranix-- I found that Rissalix with Oran was also often a nice nick. Rissalix/Oran produced Golden Wings who was an FEI international competition horse for the UK in the early 80’s and then a schoolmaster at Jennie Loriston-Clarke’s farm, Bright Meadows who was campaigned as a possible Olympic mount by Chuck Grant, and Magic Domino who was approved for breeding by the Canadian Trakehner Horse Society. The Oran/Rissalix nick often produces height (even up to 16H) without losing structural balance and produces elegance as well as free forward movement.

Golden Wings (a son of Silent Wings–note the contemporary GP Arabian Ta’Ez also traces to Silent Wing’s dam Silfina) : http://www.faeriecourtfarm.com/photos/webexamples/Silent%20Wings.pdf

Bright Meadows: http://www.shineabit.com/sa01003.htm

I also found that the Warren Park/Aulrab lines were quite likely to produce excellent movement, size with good structure and balance, and nobility. The Warren park lines have been successfully crossed with both Rissalix and Oran lines. One example of a typical Warren Park horse is the ATA approved stallion, Aul Magic.

Early in my research of Arabians, I had found an aged stallion that was the son of *Silver Vanity (Oran x Silver Gilt) a National Champion in the UK that was imported to the US and left a legacy in the UK, Australia, and the US. Silver Vanity (foaled in 1950) was a stallion of exceptional beauty, elegance, and presence, but he had a number of faults including sickle hocks, a weak loin, and calf knees. His line fell out of favor because of these traits, but I had discovered that the offspring that did not inherit these faults were often exceedingly nice. The aged son that I saw had broken his back as a yearling and had a “hump” in his lumbar spine as a result. As a result of that injury he was unable to be ridden and had both the hump and an odd stance behind. Still he was of obvious quality and could move well in spite of his back injury. According to his current owner, the effort was expended to help this stallion survive his injury because his breeder felt he was exceptional. I bred to this stallion three times and would have used him again if circumstances had been otherwise. He was bred by the same breeder who produced my lovely little bay mare that is infertile and is of similar type.

Here he is:
http://www.faeriecourtfarm.com/photos/webexamples/AF_Vanity's_Repeat_SRS_2991.jpg
http://www.mistyridge-arabians.com/vanity_arabian_stallion.htm

The bay is my infertile mare who was 18 in the trot photo and 22 in the canter one. I started her under saddle at 18 and she has found the work easy because she IS built for it. Such a shame that this fine mare left no progeny. She is a blend of Double R, Oran through Silver Vanity, and linebred Raffles. Though she had no offspring, she is proof to me that I am on the right track with the bloodlines I am using. :slight_smile: Plus, she is still fun to ride and completely sound at 23.

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Part 3A:

The first foal I bred was specifically bred with the hope of obtaining a filly to cross with my (at the time still immature stallion prospect) In 2005, my Al-Marah bred mare of Double R/Oran lines delivered a filly by the aged Silver Vanity son, AF Vanitys Repeat

2 foal shots, yearling trot photo, 2 year old stance (awkward downhill phase), two year old head.

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Part 3B:

This filly’s dam was shown at an open USDF show after a few months under saddle and placed well in open competition (three 1st’s and a third). I rode her for a year before breeding two foals and then I restarted her under saddle just this past summer. This mare has a maternal half-sibling that competed at PSG last year in USDF shows.

I liked the 2005 filly so much that I repeated the breeding for 2006 and got another very nice filly!

dam photos under saddle (1 month after being restarted), 2 photos of the 2006 filly as a foal, and a two year old photo at the same awkward downhill age as her full sister in the stance photo in the above post)

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I think this thread lost its value when the debate / bashing of some breeds // breeders started…

What happened to what dressage lines do you ‘’ think’’ will make a good dressage horse… ??

Those that want to continue with the bashing maybe should start a new thread and label it … lets BasH one another thread… so those of us that don’t want to participate or read thru … won’t…

frankly i keep looking at this thread to see if there is a new post in answering the question… but keep having to read thru the bashing segment to find out that the post has gone off track… hugely…

P~

Part 4:

early results of my breeding plan :slight_smile:

The 2005 Oran/Rissalix/DoubleR filly (now in foal to my young stallion)
Her 2006 2 year old full sister
My 2007 filly by the same sire as my stallion and out of the first Arabian mare that I acquired who was my riding horse for a few years
A 2006 colt by the wonderful aged Silver Vanity son, AF Vanitys Repeat (thus a paternal half-sib to the full sisters) He’s out of a fine mare of Raffles/Azraff lines crossed with some complimentary Spanish Arabian bloodlines.
a 2006 colt of Warren Park lines

Engagement, stretching over the topline, freedom in the shoulder, balanced movement, a friendly temperament with a good work ethic are all goals that I strive for with these particular lines. I have been encouraged by the amount of those qualities that I have seen in the early foals so I will keep breeding forward.

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Part 5:

My foundation stallion’s first three foals were all born in 2008 and were all fillies. He passed on his four square balance, topline, well let down hocks, shortened the backs/strengthened the couplings, and still let each of the mare’s best qualities come through in the foals. I will continue to use him as a sire and plan to continue to incorporate Warren Park bred stallions (I’ve got an Aul Magic foal due in 2009) and may utilize my 2006 AF Vanitys Repeat son if he matures from his gangly ugly ducking self into the lovely adult that I think he may become. Using lines that have produced good sport horses in the past has been an important component to my breeding goals and plans. I know that I have further improvements to make in my breeding stock, but I try to remain cognizant of where the flaws and strengths are in each individual and hope to continue to breed up/forward.

Here are two photos of each of my stallion’s first three fillies:
(second photo of the third filly)
http://faeriecourtfarm.com/photos/TrueLove0804_159C.jpg

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