Thank you for putting together your string of thoughtful and informative posts. What lovely horses you have!
It breaks my heart that there are some fabulous bloodlines in many breeds dying out. I experienced something similar when I began breeding. I had owned a couple of TBs by the same sire who were very successful dressage horses. This horse had some great old turf bred lines that nobody wass interested in anymore. He had also mangled his foot badly as a 3 year old in a starting gate accident, so after a promising start, he didnāt have much of a career. Nobody but his owner was breeding to him and the owner was slowly dispersing his stock. I acquired a really nice TB mare and got a filly who I had planned to start my breeding dynasty with (youthful dreams of glory, lol). She died as a 3 year old. So I bred to the stallion again. This time I got a colt. The stallion was aged by this time. My colt was his last foal. I am not really in a position to manage a stallion and the colt was a handful, so I gelded him.
I would buy any of his daughters today, sight unseen, but I have never been able to find one.
Pippin ā I guess youāve missed the last half dozen posts then?
I knew of an Arabian mare who would have and perhaps did make a wonderful small sportshorse showing/ breeding prospect. She was about 14.2 or 14.3, beautiful, calm, with three excellent gaits. She was really droolworthy. She floated across the ground and didnāt have the croup-high canter that some Arabians with good trots haveā¦ I wish I could go back in time 12 years and find out what her bloodlines were.
I forgot to mention a few other horses of these lineages that had some success in dressage/sport. The Double R gelding Count Thirteen was trained to FEI levels in dressage in the 1970ās by Gina Manion. Gina Manion also rode the intensely Raffles bred stallion Winraff to upper levels. Interestingly, Winraff sired a stallion named JR Lyraff (also inbred to Raffles) who was the Arabian great-grandsire of the late great eventing pony, Theodore OāConnor. The 1940 stallion, Rafmirz, a son of Raffles and 3/4 sibling to Indraff was trained to GP/high school dressage. My own little red stallion is himself moderately linebred to Indraff/Raffles so clearly traits for sport/dressage ability can be found throughout a number of generations and branches of the Raffles lines.
It breaks my heart that there are some fabulous bloodlines in many breeds dying out. I experienced something similar when I began breeding. I had owned a couple of TBs by the same sire who were very successful dressage horses. This horse had some great old turf bred lines that nobody wass interested in anymore. (snip)
I would buy any of his daughters today, sight unseen, but I have never been able to find one.
It is heartbreaking. (My first horse was a purportedly turf-bred English TB who was a superb dressage horseāand moderately good eventer. Unfortunately, I never knew his registered name so I couldnāt research his lines. He was a fantastic horse with an incomparably generous heart.) My primary motivation for breeding is to keep some of these fine lines going forward. I think it is worthwhile to try.
Thank you for putting together your string of thoughtful and informative posts. What lovely horses you have!
It breaks my heart that there are some fabulous bloodlines in many breeds dying out. I experienced something similar when I began breeding. I had owned a couple of TBs by the same sire who were very successful dressage horses. This horse had some great old turf bred lines that nobody wass interested in anymore. He had also mangled his foot badly as a 3 year old in a starting gate accident, so after a promising start, he didnāt have much of a career. Nobody but his owner was breeding to him and the owner was slowly dispersing his stock. I acquired a really nice TB mare and got a filly who I had planned to start my breeding dynasty with (youthful dreams of glory, lol). She died as a 3 year old. So I bred to the stallion again. This time I got a colt. The stallion was aged by this time. My colt was his last foal. I am not really in a position to manage a stallion and the colt was a handful, so I gelded him.
I would buy any of his daughters today, sight unseen, but I have never been able to find one.[/QUOTE]
arab shows are in there, and I didnāt keep looking for QHs.
one winner I recognize, in training level of all places, was a professional rider with a $250,000 WB. What theyāre doing in training level test is beyond me, but rest assured they won the class. It really does not reflect a score from an Adult Ammy on a reasonally-budgeted WB. How many more top scores reflect this I donāt know.
Many non-dressage breed owners have neither the time, money, nor inclination to aim for 72% or 75%. They learn the test and move on. I know this happened with me and my TB ā we traveled the USDF training scale from Training through GP. Had I waited for a 73% we would still be in Training level and the horse would be miserable (not enough challenge for him).
To say he has no talent, or was unsuitable for dressage because he never put down a 73% would be absurd. Anyone watching him work would know he revelled in dressage and it did come quite easy to him. To know he came in above the median at all levels and against all registries, including WBs, is also validation of his suitability (again Iām referring to above link, page 5). I also received more than my share of blues against imported WBs, donāt ask me why outside of we did manage to put in better overall tests.
I got my fix for āfirstā by participating the the USDF All Breeds program. I did not run the numbers and add up each registry, but many non-dressage breeds are here ā maybe thatās where USDF got their twothirds-are-riding-other-than-WB statistics.
As a USA breeder it is all well and good to compete with european WBs and knock their socks off, but there is also a valid place for many diverse breeds ā and that includes FEI work.
He was a champion Arabian race horse, now deceased. Iāve seen videos of him loose in the pasture and racing and WOW, he absolutely floated across the ground. Totally loose. He has a number of babies and grand-babies in the Houston area and many seem very very well suited for dressageā¦ nice movement, good size, willing learners, very athletic and very pretty, too. I wish wish wish Proof or his son (prior to being gelded - Iāve seen him in person and heās stunning, too) was presented to the Trakehner association for inspection. I donāt know but it seems like some of the Arabian racing bloodlines might be good producers of arabians suitable for dressage/sport.
Actually the OP question was, āSo, what are some of the sucessful lines?ā
If the market majority is Adult Ammies, and we do all seem to agree on that, that largely depends on a horse that is compatable with the ridersā level of competance, not so much the sires competing at the top of the sport.
I really donāt know who the most in-common sire (translation, successful) would be here amoung all USDF dressage horsesā¦ interesting question. Nearco is a possibility, would have to round up the other usual suspectsā¦
Another bloodline that I like in dressage horses is the Bolero line. As a well-known breeder, breed judge and clinician said to me, āThey usually have nuclear-powered hind ends.ā And for example, the Hanoverian stallion, Bordeaux, himself had this power and passed it on. Butā¦waitā¦he was barely 16 hands! I guess all WBs arenāt ā17 h monsters.ā
Nearco there as well. See, we really do have the blood to beat the socks off the europeans! Iām going to go hug my horseā¦ err, my geldingā¦ again.
Wow, thanks Dawn J-L. I enjoyed your detailed posts and comparing your descriptions with the photos. THANK YOU! I have a friend who has a Crabbet/CMK-bred stallion that I ride occasionally, and although his trot isnāt very free his canter is one of the best canters Iāve ever ridden. She bred him (at 19 yrs) to a NF Proof daughter (see above post) and got a really nice colt last year who is not only sane and pleasant but looks like heāll be well suited for dressage. I canāt wait to see how he turns out (in part because I have a terrible eye for babies - they all look cute and elastic to me).
Different Bolero. Hey, your horse shares alot with my mareās TB side. But I guess all TBs share alot of the same ancestry. Iām trying to learn more about her TB side but my TB knowledge is very limited.
I was thinking of (excerpting from the sporthorse forum):
āBoleroās sire was Eight Thirty, and he has long been known as a good sire for hunter/jumpers. Heās one of the ānativeā American TBs who is excellent in sport horse production. Unfortunately his sireline is dead. The other Eighty Thirty sire son to look for is Sailor.ā http://www.pedigreequery.com/bolero
āmyā Bolero died the same year the Hannoverian Bolero was foaled, 1975. Weird.
[QUOTE=Touchstone Farm;3772210]
Butā¦waitā¦he was barely 16 hands! I guess all WBs arenāt ā17 h monsters.ā :-)[/QUOTE]
Actually no one said they were. There was a sort of bru ha-ha over in the SBF and Holsteiner approval because Hickstead is ā just barely ā 16 hands. In fact thereās some excellent warmblood jumper sires who arenāt huge ā less than 16.2.
He was a champion Arabian race horse, now deceased. Iāve seen videos of him loose in the pasture and racing and WOW, he absolutely floated across the ground. Totally loose. He has a number of babies and grand-babies in the Houston area and many seem very very well suited for dressageā¦ nice movement, good size, willing learners, very athletic and very pretty, too. I wish wish wish Proof or his son (prior to being gelded - Iāve seen him in person and heās stunning, too) was presented to the Trakehner association for inspection. I donāt know but it seems like some of the Arabian racing bloodlines might be good producers of arabians suitable for dressage/sport.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=J-Lu;3772232]
Wow, thanks Dawn J-L. I enjoyed your detailed posts and comparing your descriptions with the photos. THANK YOU! I have a friend who has a Crabbet/CMK-bred stallion that I ride occasionally, and although his trot isnāt very free his canter is one of the best canters Iāve ever ridden. She bred him (at 19 yrs) to a NF Proof daughter (see above post) and got a really nice colt last year who is not only sane and pleasant but looks like heāll be well suited for dressage. I canāt wait to see how he turns out (in part because I have a terrible eye for babies - they all look cute and elastic to me).[/QUOTE]
You are welcome. NF Proof does look like a very nice horse. The Polish x CMK cross is often a good oneāboth bloodline groups have a tradition of breeding for athleticism. Arabian flat racing lines like other working/performance lines (as opposed to āliving artā lines) are a source of potential sport ability within the breed.
I chose bloodlines for my program based on individuals that were available, on the appearance of sport ability/traits in those lines over generations, and on a history of proven nicks between the particular lineages. As I said at the beginning of my sequence of posts, there are other lineages in the breed that possess sport/dressage qualities.
Well I have a few 17hh monsters and have one coming in April -
this one is by ES Donavan - wondered if anyone else here has one.
The mare is already huge and her colt from 2007 - now 18 months is already 16.3hh - by a swedish warmblood stallion that is 16.3hh - mare is 16.2hh - string tested to be 17.3hh.
We like them big - and thatās what we want - we have 3 that are 17hh, a Rio Grande Filly that is 16.3hh at 2 1/2 - string tested 17.2hh
[QUOTE=STF;3767977]
So do any of you have Ferroās? If so, what are they like? I have never rode one of that lineā¦[/QUOTE]
I am currently working with a Ferro/Branco stallion (Deja Blue B) and today was his first day back to work in a couple of months and he was a perfect gentleman! He has a very active hind end, which I really like and his canter is fabulous (very uphill and balanced). From the work I have done with him, he seems to have a very good mind. He has mostly done jumper work but I think he should do quite well in dressage. Nice all around sporthorse.
I know a Ferro mare that moves pretty similarly and is just gorgeous.
There was a sort of bru ha-ha over in the SBF and Holsteiner approval because Hickstead is ā just barely ā 16 hands. In fact thereās some excellent warmblood jumper sires who arenāt huge ā less than 16.2.