The pig idea I love. Especially when you consider that the Indian mutiny of the 1840’s (?) was brought about because the native soldiers of the Brits thought their musket cartridges had been greased with lard or suet–the lard upset the Muslims and the suet upset the Hindus. All along it was mutton tallow. But the resulting religious fracas resulted in the Black Hole of Calcutta.
Perhaps the new symbol of American Airlines could be the flying pig.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chief2:
Also, please remember that for the first 22+ years of GW’s life he was brought up and educated solidly in New England, so there’s bound to be a dropping of the r now and then. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe this is why I find his accent disconcerting sometimes… it’s not really Texan, not really New England. “Y’all go on and pahk the cah now, pardner.” 
Anyway, before someone jumps on me again, let me reiterate that I really liked the speech. This speech and the one at the National Cathedral a week ago were really some of the best speaking he’s done.
My only lingering worry is that, in our rush to be strong and make it clear that these attacks were totally unacceptable, we’ll become too devoted to the idea of our own attacks. As others have mentioned, I’m worried that we’ll be plunging into an endless cycle of retaliation.
I just hope that all options and all avenues are explored, and that we don’t just try to bomb the heck out of them and hope that solves the problem. 
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Palomino19:
(and I can see you’re really above the pot shots? but I digress) I don’t think anyone was trying to insult the president. Erin has stated so many times that she thought the speech was terrific, moderator does not mean the loss of the right to an opinion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well said Palomino!
I wonder why it appears that the people on this thread who didn’t vote for our president seem to be quite open in supporting him in this terrible time, while the group who voted for him is still foaming at the mouth, spewing hatred and insults at anyone who so much as thinks about the democratic party, much less opens their mouth about it…
The part that really scares me is that I wonder what these people would do if we ended up in these circumstances with the “other party” in charge? Based on the level of venom I see here, I can’t believe that they would be anywhere near as supportive of the current president as all the yellow dog democrats are being right now. I just envision a horrible divisiveness that would do nothing good for our country.
Maybe I’m wrong, but I have seen little evidence of graciousness so far. So mostly I am glad we have a republican president because if there are lots more out there like you guys, I don’t think we could wage war on 2 fronts… against external terrorist forces AND those in our own country that couldn’t seem to support the president that was NOT of their choice if their very life (or someone elses) depended on it.
DMK- Thanks for sharing your gray areas. Your thoughts have prompted me to go read more about Pakistan.
Heidi- I am also certain I did not imply Baymare supported the Taliban.
Happy riding,
SLW
Thanks, NP Fisher. I was waiting for someone else to speak up re:Ted Nugent. My comment would have been much less eloquent. I was looking for an emoticon for “barf”.
I’m not sure how his previous career as shock rocker qualifies him as a commentator on politics and social justice. It’s people like Ted that make people like me want strict gun control!
Hey DMK, here’s a belated thank you for all the very informative posts you’ve made about the situation in Afghanistan! 
because your husband is a Very Important Person in a Very Important Company, that means that you have a monopoly on the a factually based understanding of world affairs…
Hmmmm…
OK, HeyYouNags - you get the first one: what in the world do you think a “Psyops” operation against this particular group of terrorists will look like?
Speaking of speeches, did you all see Bush doing the airport press conference? I really debated over posting about it, but I think anyone, republican or otherwise who has a sense of humor will not have a problem. Mr Hobson and I both stared at each other in bewilderment as the president announced that “By Thursday, ticket counters and airplanes will be taking off from Reagan National Airport.”
Now, don’t know about you guys, but we laughed ourselves silly thinking up newspaper headlines for when the ticket counters take off. Our favorites were:
“Ticket Counters Airborne, Terrorists Can’t Check In”
“Ticket Counters Take Off Today–Rest of Airport Lifts Off Saturday to Remove Itself to Safer Location”
is a prominent UK newspaper
prevails against the crazies, we won’t be needing any of those fancy pre-green prospects/ eq horses or jumpers…the school horses may come in handy to go back and forth to town on, though…
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Press shouldn’t be in the way… either they’re morons or they just weren’t properly instructed and whoever coordinates the press corps is not doing their job. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The problem is that they did happen and they need to not happen. Ever. If the people in charge are lax, they need to not be the people in charge. Being a moron is just not a justifible excuse.
The witchy witch witch of south central NC.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> While the antrax is bothersome more people died yesterday from heart disease, cancer and auto wrecks than antrax, and that will happen again today. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No kidding… In fact, more people probably died as a result of a highly overworked, straining-at-the-seams 911 system. Scary times indeed.
HYN - re the “economic” impact of pork and mother cow. Harris’ conclusion is that pork is - worldwide - a very desired source of food, because it is extremely efficient (it has a very high yield of protein/calories, with minimal intake of calories that would be competing with human food sources). In fact about the only place swine does not do well at all is in desert lands. So in 50 words or less, pork became a taboo in a part of theworld where raising them would have actually been a drain on resources rather than a benefit to the population.
As for cattle and India, his theory is that the least possible value a cow could have would be as meat. As a “sacred” animal, she provides labor (pulling a plow), milk (food) and fertilizer and fuel for fires (manure). Additionally, she reproduces all of these things (calves). Also, she is generally left to forage for food, and is basically not fed anything that could otherwise be fed to a human (and certainly not enough to make her a viable source of protien/calories), therefore increasing her yield per pound of food. His conclusion was that eating all the cattle in India would feed a nation for a day and starve them for a lifetime.
Very interesting stuff, and I think it rings true since these are results that more primitive populations could quickly discern for themselves.
I agree! Chretien should have gone to NY last week 
There is no excuse. What a weenie 
Tony Blair Robby and Portia?? TONY BLAIR?? The man looks like a weasel 
I agree too about not supporting him much because of his very strong anti-countryside opinions. Although he is a very good speaker.
I agree with all you guys about Dubya’s accent! I don’t always understand him! 
Heck, up until today I never even knew what you guys meant when you were talking about “Dubya” 
How DARE you use the word Jihad in a context with me. I demand you apologize. Do you know the meaning of this word? I am furious that you would make this statement at and about my posts on this BB. To make light of such a horrible concept relative to debate that involves political leanings is inexcusable. How dare you insult me and my character in a such a horrid and extreme use of this word.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
…I do not believe those grey things are called fear. I believe most informed people would call them “prudence”. Nor are they “excuses”. They are an understanding of the laws of unintended consequences…
Foreign policy that is made with blinkers on can and will cost lives. Such foreign policy is referred to as “folly”…
As M.O’Connor said, not acting when the ante is so high is also not an option, and is its own sort of folly. But this does not mean that you engage without full knowledge, planning, and options.
And it would behoove people in this country to understand that actions (and the failure to act) have consequences. Some of these consequences may gravely affect us in the future. If we are extraordinarily clever, gifted and lucky, we will limit the number of such consequences.
How can facing reality be called fear? How could one think that by understanding and accepting the possible ramifications of our actions we are looking for excuses?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Double bingo!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
I realize Hobson that it is hard for you to comprehend that it is possible for us to have a President who isn’t stupid and doesn’t lie. It had to be a Republican!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh fer chrissakes Snowbird!!! Your contempt for the other 50% of this nation is now fully understood. Oh wait… I forgot about how little esteem you hold the under 50 crowd in too…
Best as I can tell, the only people you find worthy of sharing your oxygen are those born prior to 1941, who have not ever voted for anyone other than a republican, including Richard Nixon. Mighty small company you keep, and getting smaller by the day, I should think.
OK, now back to you regularly scheduled self-laudatory mumbo-jumbo, as HYN so insightfully posted…
Oh and just a postscript… the Bush Administration you are quoting is doing exacty that which you were ranting at all of us for talking about in this, which must be considered by ANY measure, a most innocuous place… Yep… they are exercising caution (check your words somewhere around page 1-13 of this thread - you were not in agreement with people who had that same thought).
So best as I can tell, you are for the President’s Policy, no matter what it is, and can’t seem to have some independent thoughts of your own?
halfhalt, if you don’t support Fabio, then I suggest you move to some nasty anti-Fabio country and learn to speak…ummmm…learn to speak…can somebody help me here? My condemnation is falling a little short.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snowbird:
Is it possible to be American and believe in freedom of speech for EVERYONE? even the opposition?
OH yes, I beleive in freedom of speech for everybody.
Translation Please! I don’t know what this means
It means that the media in general has made him out to be such a dufus (because of the way he talks) that all he has to do his “not mess up” and everyone thinks he did a great job.
Why would you be embarrassed if he’s doing a good job? Is it just that your disappointed because he is not as stupid as you estimated because he has not been merchandised like a package of cookies?
I’m embarrassed because he talks kind of like a yahoo. Hey, it’s my problem not yours.
And, just why do you suppose that is? Could it be because the President has not authorized them to do it? Could it be that these intelligent people respect him not only as President but as a leader?
Maybe they know something you don’t know.
I guess you misunderstood me. When I said “the powers that be” I was including Bush as one of those powers. I was complimenting him and his advisors on doing the right thing (in my opinion).
Now, if you want to discuss embarrassment, I was embarrassed by the use the last President had for Cuban Cigars. I was embarrased by his behavior having some little girl under the table licking his personal parts while he was discussing
Really? Now that didn’t embarrass me at all, though I did feel sorry for his daughter. What a dumb mistake.
OH! Ilona, be forgiving “they know not what they say”. It’s sort of like when you meet a deaf man, you can’t get mad at him because he doesn’t hear you. I’ve tried to remember back to my rebel days and I am sure I was once equally unhearing aand confrontational, it just comes with the territory.
I was thinking that being a young Republican in the days of FDR was probably my personal rebellion against the establishment. Of course the difference is that “I WAS RIGHT”. HA!
My opinions have seemed to get you all fired up. It’s just my opinion and the way I feel. Not something that can be argued. Like I said before, I have plenty of Republican friends who find his lack of oratory skills to be embarrassing too. I still think he’s doing a good job (on this particular issue) no matter how hostile you are to me.
Betsy (in MD)
This really shows me what happens when I stop checking the boards religiously.
When I left work last Friday I thought this thread was dead. Little did I know!!!
First off, I would just like to say how much I have loved reading this thread (despite the fact that it took me an hour). I have learned so much and found so much of it thought provoking. So many people have so many good, interesting things to say… please keep saying them! And Heidi… please come back!!!
Naturally, some of the posts made me rather ill. But then I realized, hey… dummie… just don’t read them! So, I stopped reading the posts of those who only wish to complain, patronize, congratulate themselves, slam other opinions and piss off others who don’t also sit on lofty pedastools. There are three posters who pat one another and themselves on the back repeatedly, perhaps it is because NO ONE else here agrees with them or wants to hear what they have to say. So, I’ve turned a deaf ear to their words and, several pages ago, stopped reading what they had to say. It makes the thread a lot more enjoyable… I recommend that everyone else do it to… and if you can’t stop reading what they write, then at least don’t feed the fire and reply and give them that recognition. I made that mistake and won’t do it again.
As has been established, we all have the right to speak out and state our opinions. It’s a great thing really. We can’t stop anyone from writing what they will, but we CAN ignore what they have to say and refuse to acknowledge it.
3)Hobson, you also succeeded in making my roomate and I laugh hystericaly with your Flying Ticket Counters posts. SO funny!
Speaking of National Airport, though, it was pretty eery to see the planes flying above DC again today. My neighborhood, Foggy Bottom, is right next the Potomac and a hop down the river and across from Reagan National. I had become so used to constantly hearing and seeing the planes flying in and out. I never could have imagined before September 11th that a shiver of fear would run through me every time a plane flew close above. When I was on the Hill today I was relieved to find that the planes are no longer allowed to fly above the Capitol. I hate that I felt relieved though, you know? I hate that I now have that fear. 
It makes me unable to imagine what it must be like for people in countries like Isreal and the Balkan states who have lived with the fear of attack all of their lives.
3)Charis & SLW- could not agree with you more about Tony Blair. His speech the other day was just amazing. The transcript posted doesn’t do the speech justice… you had to have heard it delivered to have it touch you the way it touched me and so many others. It gave me so much comfort to hear how devoted he is to rooting out this evil and how compassionate he is to what so many thousands, indeed, millions, have suffered. Like so many other politicians in this crisis, PM Blair has really shown what leadership means.
To the people who have criticized his domestic policies. I definitely have not been following his domestic policy making enough to provide a credible counter-argument. I spent a few months, however, working for the international polling firm (based in DC and London) that handles PM Blair’s polling. And what I CAN tell you is that those who disagree with his policies are in the minority… on nearly all issues he has scored some of the highest public opinion numbers ever seen for a Brittish leader in times of peace.
Whoever said he was attractive though… have to disagree on that front- those ears… those teeth!
4)DMK and Heidi and Hobson- I loved your “epics”!
5)Muley- It may be true that Jefferson, wasn’t a great public speaker. But you can not measure a modern president by relics of the past like Jefferson. They didn’t have to cary out their presidencies in front of a telivision camera. Today’s standards are 100% different. It’s not enough, anymore, to just be genius.
6)Louise- SO right about the West Wing! Last night’s episode was wonderfully clear and informative. When I watch the West Wing I want to marry my TV.
7)Hobson, I definitely enjoyed your letter and see where you are coming from. The opression of consumerism lately has been pretty overwhelming. However, I totally agree with CandadianCanter and her post about jobs being effected. Behind every DVD player is a job, several in fact. You don’t buy that DVD player and those jobs are lost. It’s not your fault, of course. But I don’t think it pays to so easily pass off the notion of buying goods as a means of supporting the economy. Ther has to be a happy medium between doing all of the good deeds you mentioned in your letter AND going out there and doing your part to keep the economy propped up in the short term.
How does one explain their unwillingness to buy into consumerism to the thousands who are getting laid off? It’s very good to do your good deeds through charity giving, but the need for charity only increases dramatically if we don’t fill the demand that once existed for goods and services. To know have the highest unemployment rate in 9 years is one scary, scary fact. My graduating college class is heading into the worst job market in decades. I can’t tell you how many 20-something friends I have in financial services (and many other sectors) who walk into work every day now expecting to be laid off.
Hobson, have you ever seen the documentary Roger and Me? I had to watch it the other day and I thought of you because the producer is a Naderite. It is very good, all be it depressing. It is about the producer’s struggle to interview Roger Smith, the former Chairmen of General Motors, after GM closed it’s plant in Flint, Michigan. It brilliantly chronicles the fall of Flint and the sociological impact. It has made me think a lot about lay-offs and the devestation that results.
Whew. That was a lot.
PS… I apologize for my horrible spelling.
[This message was edited by rockstar on Oct. 05, 2001 at 12:41 AM.]
I know that the Insurance Companies don’t play to pay, and certainly the hospitals are not going to absorb the losses. But, I must say that the point I made was not to get into health care systems except to show how the establishment gets into your bedroom. I would like to know how they calculate their risk people. I thought they refused to insure them. They seem to only want premiums from people who don’t do anything and I don’t know if that’s all that healthy.
So many well intentioned plans and causes go askew when the money starts to roll and they have to mee that big pay off. My position is simplistic, based on history we are responsible for ourselves.
Whenever, you seek entitlements it follows the old rule “if it looks too good to be true, it probably is”. We pay for all kinds of insurance and then if we have a claim they just bump up the premiums until you’ve paid them back. It is a life’s work just to read any policy with all the if’s and’s and but’s and exemptions.
I wonder, have you heard any repercussions regarding September 11. I understand that most policies that would cover the losses people had are void if it is an act of war. What is it up to so far around 150 billion and climbing. I wonder if this affects Life Insurance as well as property damage. And, if they don’t pay off how will that affect the general economy? The ripples will go around the world.
[This message was edited by Snowbird on Oct. 07, 2001 at 02:39 AM.]
Indeed, DMK, and this particular place still suffers from quite a number of human rights problems (which is not to say that the US does not, but that’s for another discussion).
On another note, the two phrases I hope to never hear again anytime soon:
“Evil-Doers”
“Make NO mistake!”
Please, presidential speech writers…stop the madness! Put the comic books away–this is serious business!
On yet another note, how does one measure policy success? I hear this morning on NPR that the last several days of Afghanistan-bombing have been successful, because “we have al-Qaeda on the run in Afghanistan.” Since they have been running around Afghanistan for the past 10 years, I am not sure how this marks a change in status.
If we are campaigning to “drive the terrorists out of their hidden caves” according to Our President, how is bombing not-so-secret radio towers contributing to that? The fact that we’re attacking the network indirectly through the Taliban indicates that we don’t know where the hidden caves are located, and therefore have no way of knowing whether the terrorists have actually vacated the caves, if in fact they were ever hanging about in caves. Unless that information is being withheld. Maybe there are also secret US military people running around Afghanistan, but I suppose the only way we’ll understand in the long run whether or not this particular goal has been met is when we see middle-east/central asia-originated terrorism suddenly end.
We MAY be weakening the Taliban, but since toppling them is not priority number one, who knows how that will proceed. 10 years after bombing the snot out of Hussein, he is still creating a mess in Iraq. It would be nice to see the administration come up with a plan for what to do about Afghanistan when the bombing phase of the operation is concluded–are we going to leave the Taliban in place if we get Bin Laden? Are we going to aid the Northern Alliance (wouldn’t that be something - let’s just pretend that their reign of terror in the early 90’s didn’t happen) and let them have another turn at ruining the place?
And in this new climate of “zero-tolerance” of terrorism, I’m curious about the fact that little has been said about home-grown terrorism. After Bin Laden is found, the Orange Order thugs will still insist that marching season HAS to take them directly through the middle of Catholic neighborhoods, and the IRA will continue importing arms from the US and elsewhere. Will the US stop soft-pedaling the intentions of abortion clinic terrorists? Do we plan to root out right-wing militia terrorists? Surely there are other McVeighs in the making out there in Idaho.
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