Everyone watching? He looks just like his daddy! And sounds like him too.
F44 - Once a nerd, always a nerd.
I must tell you all that my final mission is this one. Did you know that you don’t need oil at all? Did you know that there is a generator which will produce electricity for a community and it runs on manure?
Do you realize that if we all cooperated it is possible to have electric generators run by the manure from our horses and then have electricity to sell?
There were test generators built years ago, before you were born when we all stood in line at the gas stations because of the gas shortage. They ran a generator for a town of 1200 homes all fueled by cow manure, and horse manure has even more methane.
Now, if we converted the world into thinking manure we wouldn’t need to buy any oil from anyone and all that black stuff would stay in the ground. If those middle east countries didn’t feel they had money faucet to turn on whenever they wanted, they might be compelled to develop economic policies that would help their people.
And, just project the benfit to the horse world! No longer would a horse be valuable because of how high, or how wide or even how fast it was. Imagine a world where horses were valued by the amount of manure they produced per day. No more starving horses ever again! No more killing them for meat!
A simple solution to end the rule of big oil, make the horses happy and have free elctricity. Could you dream of more?
Oh Erin, we’re going to have to take you on a road trip through the deep south and Texas!! 
I have always understood what Dubya and Jimmy Carter were saying!
SLW
This article is super funny, but sad in a way because it is so darn true!
Onion
The witchy witch witch of south central NC.
that it was a good rousing speech ! It was what it needed to be!I am supporting him ok , but I still cringe when he talks
The point is that it is not acceptable if it is pointless revenge,(agreement with your point Hobson) which is what these terrorists are doing. They are breaking their own commandments of “Thou shall not covet”. They are only revenging themselves for our property and because of jealousy for what we have and they have not! Thieves rationalize their right to steal the same way as these terrorists rationalize their right to kill.
Look the farmers in Israel turned the desert into food producing farms with financial help sure, but they did the work. They offered the Palestinians the opportunity to share their knowledge and experience and avoid their mistakes. But, instead the enemy wants to take the farm, but not do the work. How long would it be before the farm is gone and the desert is back. So the farmers have a right to defend themselves and it is not just pointless revenge.
I think Hobson you need to look at the context. The God of Islam and the Commandments belong to Islam, the Hebrews and the Christians because they are one family all descended from Abraham. Moses and Jesus are recognized by Allah. The same rules apply to all.
Just as you see the ways that Christianity can use these statements from the Bible as a way for abuse so you have to see that is the way that these sociopaths use the same words. So yes! they really believe that Allah is on their side because they leave out a little thing like the “revenge” motive. They ignore the sins of avarice, greed, envy and false pride in that same Koran.
Yes! it’s true David Koresh and his Branch Dividians believed they would have a special place with their twists on theology, he put himself at the right hand of God and the only one capable of truly interpreting the laws of God, that was vanity and being a false prophet. In Jonestown they used the Bible but overlooked the little part about suicide and murder.
Is their God on their side? In an esoteric debate of strict interpretation I believe they would also lose any debate. But they prey on the downtrodden and the hopeless, offering them hope here on earth. Just like Falwell who says we are being punished for what he imagines are sins in God’s eyes. In all these cases war is a defensive thing when approved by a Diety and the terrorists are impatient with God so they have taken offensive actions, these are not approved by any theology or even those without a theology.
Of all the major religions there are none that approve the killing of innocent children and women, the old and infirmed for any reason. Remember these words were written in a day when only healthy males could even be considered as infidels.
I watched an interview where they discussed the martyr complex and it was interesting because I know of no God who would promise these martyrs 17 young virgins for themselves when they go to paradise as a martyr. Yet, this is what the martyrs are told will be their reward.
My guess is that is the dream of young men in that society, I personally can concieve of no way that “sex” is part of paradise since it is a pleasure seeking choice for the body and not for the soul. I don’t know of a single theology that promises a paradise for the body after death.
I was most interested to have read the sermon because we all were having a debate about the justification for war and I thought these specific quotes were valuable. Somewhere and I’m no scholar it does say “Vengeance is Mine saith the Lord” which confirms the difference.
I think the President has once again proved his capacity to understand those quotes by using the banks as his first line of attack. If our partners will support us and those bank accounts in Europe are frozen, the money supply to support these terrorists will drive them out into the open where they can be trapped and tried in the world courts. I especially liked it when he said if those Banks refuse then they will not be able to do business in this country. Because it is unlikely they want to help the terrorists enough to sacrifice their own well being.
The lines of battle are being drawn in the right place. If Bin Laden can’t pay his people then will he have any people? So our President is actually using the best tool to satify even the most adamant bleeding heart liberal.
[This message was edited by Snowbird on Sep. 24, 2001 at 01:08 PM.]
In my experience you can usually you can find a hidden chain of mystery almost anywhere if you keep looking. Usually however the fact is not that people plotted some great conspiracy but rather they didn’t think it out at all and it happened. This is confirmed by the posted statement from Daddy Bush.
I would have agreed with you about the religion concept being too simplistic. While I am certain that there is some other motivation for some of the leaders I am also certain from the interviews that I saw from real people in Afghanistan that religion is truely the motivation, and truly what can be expected.
I work a lot in the wee hours when the less popular stuff is aired on satelite and off beat channels and this was a shocking hour. The logic voiced was simple and direct regarding the issue of their kind of Islam.
I think we find it very hard to believe in such religious ferver because we are so much more homogenized. They on the other hand are convinced that their passage here on earth will be blessed in Paradise with Allah.
As to the suicide group, we wonder how they could live with us and still hate us when we know how kind and tolerant we really are, they on the other hand believe that they are joining Paradise and that reward will be greater than anything we can do for them, that may even be the way they pay their penance to Allah for having been corrupted here by beer and smoking or whatever else they imagine is a sin including shaving their beards.
We had suicide bombers in World War II from Japan. They were the same kind of people looking for eternal glory in their paradise and not seeing what they do as a crime. They just don’t get it at all it is simply not part of their sociological structure.
Any that have been interviewed have never had some broad scope of phiosophical debate about economics, that is our bag and not theirs.
They believe that our blessings will damn us to eternal hell while they will rise and rule Paradise. In conversations I had with Muslims when we visited the middle east years ago they have an uncomplicated and simple view of the universe and the path that man takes. They really feel they are the defenders of the right of Ishmael to have his inheritance from Abraham finally.
Please do not assume deep complicated thinking purposes to the troops led by Bin Laden. They DO NOT WANT our world, they are not jealous of our world, they believe that the more difficult their life the better their chances of going to Paradise.
What offended me was the knee-jerk reaction that our government is wrong, that it always makes the wrong choices for the wrong reasons. While this may be so some times it is not the motivation for everything.
Hobson - yup, you were one 
…thanks for the comments.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think artifacts have politics–phones, toasters, bridges and car seats. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Absolutely! Falls into what I term “the inherent intransigence of inanimate objects.”
Thanks, too, for the precis of your beliefs - you have a much bleaker view of the US than I, and a much rosier view of “parliamentary socialism” but hey! we can’t agree on more than one thing per thread, can we? 
It’s definitely a fine line to balance any form of government and economic system with humane principles. I do think that the US as set out in the (amended) Constitution should have come closer than most - if we can get rid of government by corporate contribution, it’ll help a lot.
Sorry, Hobson - as a single working woman, I just don’t want to pay the taxes the residents of the Netherlands and Canada pay. My taxes are bad enough - footing the bill for all their social giveaway programs would put me well below the poverty line. Just call me selfish, but my 40-60 hours a week just about supports me & the 4-footies as it is - emphasis on oatmeal cuisine and clothes from resale shops. I can’t believe there isn’t some way to improve the general quality of life without impoverishing the middle class. But you probably disagree and that’s ok - we’re each just one vote after all!
Heidi - I agree with you completely about the status of women (also probably with Hobson - yipes!) A great deal of the fundamentalist Islamic distaste for western civ. has to do with our treatment of women. Of course, a great deal of fundamentalist Christian distaste for modern western society stands on the same base. There’s an idea - get Bin Laden & Falwell together - on the next space probe to Mars… Anyway, the total wastage and abuse of women in Muslim nations, esp. Afghanistan, is outrageous. I was thinking about that last night as I went to a movie, drove my truck (using oil, Hobson - I live in the country, what can I say 
) to grocery shop at 9PM, then to the barn for bedcheck on the beasties. Clear cause for being stoned to death in Afghanistan…IMO, every woman in the world has a deep personal stake in the plight of Afghan women.
JMHO, of course.
Found it. You GO Blair. Ka-poweee! That man can write! (They say he wrote the speech himself, which, we are told, is rare!)
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/10/02/ret.blair.address/
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
More interesting articles from today’s Post. (Washington Post, that is, not that NY rag )
You can delete the “may” from that headline, because about an hour ago:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5048-2001Oct4.html
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is GREAT NEWS!
Betsy in MD
The Post is good, but this is where I get my news…here’s an interesting article on the fate of the suicide hyjackers: http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/hijackers_surprised.html
if there were a way to convince the OBL followers that his logic is flawed (DUH, I know but pretend you are one of them.) I believe their religion is against investing in the stock market, because it’s like gambling, but many stock analysts believe that the Taliban made buckets of money in the stock market because of advance knowledge of the WTC disaster. Perhaps if other Muslims could work on convincing them…oh, I don’t know I’m talking out my
Anyway, it’s the Dairy industry that has told us to drink milk.
Betsy (in Md)
On the other hand, for many people who aren’t lucky enough to have your personal resources, a therapist is sometimes the only thing standing between them and joblessness/homelessness/suicide.
Jeez, Hobson - what personal resources? Last year I sent my shotgun to live at a friend’s house because it was looking entirely too attractive as a solution. However, I absolutely think there is too great a tendency today to encourage people to be weak, rather than to help them to find their strength. Maybe because the “New World Order” will be more easily implemented upon the weak?
Back in the 80’s the state of PA decided that the mentally ill really just needed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and closed down most of the state mental hospitals–these would be the people who are now wandering around the streets in my downtown neighborhood eating out of my trash, crapping all over themselves and screaming about the giant mosquitoes.
Yup, those people come under the same heading as the people who hear voices - there are people who need to be prevented from harming themselves or others. And I was not at all in favor of the Reagan administration’s closing of mental facilities for those unfortunates.
Even Freud said that most people suffer from simple unhappiness, and there isn’t anything psycho-whatever can do to help that. 
Jesus–I go away for a few days and you guys are still going at it? There are like 12 new pages on this thread since I last looked and there is no way in hell that I am gonna pour over all of it…What does come to mind is that great song by Bob Marley…something like LEGALIZE IT!!!
As for Libertarians…count me in!! I voted Libertarian in the last 4 elections-hell I am a dues paying member.
Don’t worry about the accent thing, Erin. As a Native Texan who has been misplaced in Michigan for 13 long, cold years, I sound like I’m from Ohio! My hubby says he’ll get me talking like a michigander within the next 2 years!
Even tho’ I’m way up here, I had no problem understanding Gee-Dubya. Very loud and clear to me. I just hope the “terra-ists” are smart enough to get the message.
We’re a-comin’. Make no mistake about it.
Member - Baby Greenie Support Group, HorseShowMom Clique, and Midwest Clique
The USA is a corrupt power with no legitimate agencies chasing oil. We have rotten legislation and no brains because we’re going to follow into an endless battle after the British and the Russians.
WHAT THEN? We roll over and spend the next 10 years buying peace by accepting that these poor guys have been abused aand persecuted by the world powers at large. They’re just defending themselves right?
But what is their goal? What is that would make them happy? What is a good solution for these oppressed people? Chamberlain thought Hitler would be satisfied with Poland but he wasn’t…so they gave him Czechoslovakia. That surely would make up for all our mistakes in the first World War and he would be satisfied.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>[B]from Patrick Henry?
Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.
What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death![/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The very premise of this country has always been to preserve our rights from any threat. If we had stopped Hitler early enough there would not be a state of Israel or Palistinians. Without the need to destroy Israel and Christianity would there be this deviant branch of sociopaths who hide behind the Koran and defile it?
How far? How much are we willing to concede? Do we want to live with the threat of biological attacks on our families? More bombings and more death? How many dead is required? Do we need to lose more than 6300 children in our own home? Do we say to the pedophile OK! look we know you have been abused and misunderstood and have many problems so we will give you a ration of one child a month. Whose child will that be? Do we say to the serial killer or rapist how can we help you and make it so you are not committing a crime? Shall we all donate clones to his eccentricity? Shall we offer him plastic dollies with vibrators? Will that work do you think?
When the war was over we offered and rebuilt the world, we have sent our children to help rebuild the 3rd world countries. How many billions in loans have we voided? We have loaned and given billions to help the oppressed, we offer sanctuary to those whose lives are endangered by their opposition to aautocratic government. We have shared our wealth and our prosperity willingly even when we didn’t do it for our own poor and forgotten we gave to the world. We send our children to protect the human rights of people around the world. How much more should we do?
Americans are the most generous and sharing people in this universe. Look at what they have done to help our victims from an attrocity that we didn’t invent. We learn from our mistakes, we will all protect the Muslims here as Americans and we will not let happen to them what happened to the Japanese.
Please in this time of grief and pain when our children are not only not yet buried but they have not even been found. While our crown jewel New York City which has welcomed all, is in a state of collapse how can you doubt that we as a nation will invade only the camps of the perpetrators and only punish the guilty to the best of our ability.
[This message was edited by Snowbird on Sep. 21, 2001 at 11:58 PM.]
NP Fisher
You summarized wonderfully what I was trying to say!
I am in no way trying to defend our former Prez, but I vividly recall that the opinion in the papers, etc. in response to the missile attacks in Sudan and Afghanistan was that he did it to distract the nation from the Lewinsky mess. My how the worm has turned. Hindsight is generally crystal clear.
whoops, the COTH arab/international events studies group has gotten a little off on a tangent!
Please stay Heidi! You are the soul of thoughtful, rational discourse even when we disagree. Please don’t leave me here alone with the jingoistic diatribes of the willfully ignorant!
I’m really sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. I confess, when I rant about this, I often lose sight of the fact that we lost 6500 people, who were good people, who were likable. (I can always fine something you like about every person, no matter how you disagree with them about certain subject!). 6500 people I could have swapped recipes with, ooohhhed and ahhhed over their baby pictures, talked about dogs with, even just appreciated a beautiful day with.
I hope that some good comes out of their deaths. I hope that from this our society changes some of it’s values. I hope that because of this some women in Afghanistan may be liberated and not live in fear of breaking some inane law. I hope that families spend more time together and appreciate one another. I hope that we have more respect for our friends the military men and firemen (maybe even that we give them the same respect we give our sports heroes). I hope we judge our politicians in terms of the good they do for our country, not by speech impediments, personal indiscretions or appearances. I hope our young children see that violence is sometimes a reality, and that what they see on a movie screen or video game should be seen as disturbing, not entertaining. I hope they use this to reduce the violence they may grow into.
The witchy witch witch of south central NC.
