“Today, choral sects provided a stirring musical background to the sight of ticket counters rising majestically over the eastern seaboard, where they encountered the odd pigeon on a roller coaster, and, inexplicably, Fabio.” More later…maybe. We may take the day off.
You still have that one non-horse topic from the thread killer opus.
A thread on what people are reading might be very interesting!
Good idea rockstar!
…the attacks have begun in Kabul.
Gee horsluvr, maybe if Pres Ronnie had taken the sage advice of his very own Secretary of Defense (Weinberger) over that of George Schultz (Sec of State), he would have chosen to respond to Beiruit with a) a large enough force of Marines to get the job done that they were assigned to do and b) followed up with diplomatic efforts, instead of a) ignoring the diplomatic front and b) sending over a clearly inadequate force, leaving them exposed like sitting ducks in the wake of obvious threats to their security. Yup, maybe if he had listened to Casper, who being the Secretary of DEFENSE and all, probably had a good feel for these things, perhaps the Marines wouldn’t have suffered the second largest loss of life in their long and illustrious career?
Then as a follow up to that massacre, maybe he could have sent an air raid to the base where US and Israeli intelligence led us to believe the terrorists had a training camp (any of this sound familiar), because that surely would have been more effective than bombing the hills above the city, safe from our ships (a move that was widely seen as ineffective and spineless by pretty much everyone). Those events gave an established group of terrorists a taste of victory, followed by a lesson that we would not seriously strike back. I doubt the lesson was lost on them.
Probably the only good thing to come out of those events is a younger Colin Powell observed the consequences when his boss (Weinberger) failed to persuade Reagan to his position. I doubt the lesson was lost on him either.
Regardless of my political leanings, I KNOW Reagan did not foresee the slaughter of those Marines (and at the Embassy weeks before). I think he wsa faced with multiple options, and he made the best decision he could with the information at hand. And it was wrong. Welcome to the club. Every President since Carter (and I am sure many before) has made disasterous decisions regarding the safety of Americans in the face of terrorism.
Since they are not evil or stupid, it’s just possible that they made the best decision at the time with the information at hand. Otherwise I think you need to sweep your paintbrush just a tad bit wider…
Oh, and hobson - I’m with you on that evil-doer thing - I feel like I should be looking for some superheroes. Just call OBL & his cohorts “Islamic Extremist Terrorists”… I find that strikes plenty of fear in my heart. But then I have been accused of using too many big words in my every day speech, so I probably don’t represent the pulse of the American public (yes, ask anyone who knows me, I pretty much talk like I write 
)
Vineyridge - here’s some stats you can noodle over…
USA
IMR is 7 (IMR = infant mortality rate)
Life expectancy is 77
Health Expenditure as % of GDP is 14
Actual $$ per person is $4,090
in contrast…
Japan
IMR is 4
life expectancy is 80.3
health expenditures as a % of GDP is 7.2
Actual expenditure per person is $1,741
and for giggles…
Malaysia
IMR is 10
life expectency is 72
health expenditures as a percent of GDP is Zippo
So best as I can tell, we spend a lot more to die earlier than people who spend a lot less, and we get to live a little bit longer than those who have not even catagorized how little they spend on health care.
Snowbird - you can self insure - MSA’s are part of Medicare, and have been for a few years - part of the BBA '97 act…
I’m with Magnolia. I just can’t figure out how we could do it. But I did make the suggestion to my members of Congress and to the President in emails I sent last night.
The more I hear about the people of Afganistan, the more I want to send/take them food, clothing, medicine and to help them find a way to support themselves.
If air organizations try to do it, they won’t likely have enough resources to accomplish the mission. If our government wants to do it, I don’t know how they would get around the Taliban. Can missles deliver humanitarian supplies without destroying them?
Q: What’s the difference between a terrorist and a Dressage Queen?
A: You can negotiate with a terrorist!
Well Jair, it’s pretty hard to hide an aircraft carrier, even in the Atlantic
But one thing to consider is that by giving a lot of attention to these basically “unhideable” actions (given the global reach of communications), is that they may (mis)direct attention away from other activities that the military may not wish to focus on too closely.
That so many would exploit the tragedy in New York and Washington as yet another opportunity to grandstand their political and moral superiority is rather disgusting - that pt, is what disturbs me most about this thread. When even the politicians have agreed to cease and desist on the political rhetoric, here we are 18 pages later engaged in a silly pissing contest.
Whatever my political beliefs or affiliation isn’t the point, pt. I’m doubtful the terrorists were motivated by a hate for either the republicans or democrats; in fact, I’d wager they couldn’t give a rat’s ass who they killed.
This issue isn’t about politics, it’s about humanity and the attempt to bring to justice the guilty parties and ensuring that we are never met with such tragic carnage ever again.
I believe in compassion, equality, freedom of choice, education, intellectual curiosity, wit and humour, I believe in love and beauty. I believe that we’ve done well in this country and I’m more than willing to share or help those who haven’t enjoyed the benefits afforded me and mine.
I believe that we’ve all, as human beings, politicians and mere mortals, made mistakes and suffered the burden of conceit, intolerance, and arrogance - and some of us learn and others hold steadfast to a world that doesn’t exist, preaching to an audience long after the mike’s been turned off.
Hobson,
I do prefer your interpretation. Was Fabio at an amusement park on the 45th parallel when that occured? Now I can sleep better, knowing that is the sign for the end of the world…
Ride it Like You Stole It…
It is the context of the statements that make me hold out with great tenacity for the principles.
If you say he is doing a good job…if you say he is making the right choices…but the only comment made instead of the substance refers to his mispronunciations then I become incensed. Perhaps, because I am daily surrounded by so many people with varying accents from many places and I don’t find it makes me uncomfortable.
To me it is rather like if someone commented only on the fact that at Lincoln’s Gettysburg address his pants weren’t pressed instead of the substance of the speech.
You see I am also infuriated that in the schools around here they don’t teach speech anymore. The children slur their words into an unrecognizable noise. They are not taught to use their tongue and their lips or their vocal cords to be intelligible. I also am one who grew up at a time where people made fun of the immigrants because of their misuse of our language.
I therefore find it intolerable that the attitude still exists today. The fact that someone has been exposed to two diverse accents (New England and Texas) is no reason to be demeaned.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoEasy:
posting as me, not MODERATOR persona …
do you really believe that long list of previous Presidents who had mistresses, some plural, never ever had sex in the White House/Oval Office/wherever with them???
how incredible<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My thoughts EXACTLY. Having worked at firms with numerous attorneys who have advised past presidents, I can say with certainty that there was plenty going on in the Oval Office throughout the years…the press just didn’t have the access to it that they do now! Were Marilyn Monroe alive today, she would have plenty to tell.
Kellybiard - your post was wonderful. I have to laugh every time I hear how poor Monica was coerced and abused. Please. We are pretty much the same age, and I think I would have a little more common sense and self respect than she did. Not to mention a bit more decorum 
That said, I must say that I think the Bushie has chosen his advisors well and is doing a good job throughout this ordeal. Our country has allies we never had before. The recession was something that I automatically assumed would come on when a Republican stepped into office, having lived through his father’s term while my father tried to run a small business.
Behind every good woman lies a trail of men
edit
Hobson and pt, don’t forget to work this into the equation:
CHEAP OIL!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Anyone know how the Japanese are able to control costs? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Easy, they don’t eat a double whopper with cheese, biggie fries, washed down with a 1/2 gallon of coke for lunch…
I am also amazed at how many people don’t exercise in this country, especially young people. I’m an overweight person - mainly cause I wash my veggie burger down with a 1/2 gallon of coke… and I am shocked by how many “normal” people can’t keep up with me on a hike, or a bike ride. Even the young people I’m in school with don’t exercise - then they smoke and never eat veggies - a recipe for heart disease and diabetes.
The witchy witch witch of south central NC.
Hello everyone! I’m new to this board. I’ve been lurking for sometime, but had to comment on the speech last night. I have a question to y’all. How many of you generally watch a president address congress? When was the last time it was a media event like it was last night? Usually, I will have the TV on, and I’ll listen to it while I’m doing other things, but last night, I sat and watched the whole enchalada including the commentarys afterward. I personally love the accent and have no trouble what so ever understanding him. I also think that he laid out his plan very well.
I voted for Mccain “I live in AZ.” And until now, really didn’t care for Bush all that much. But he has proven to be just what we need in this time of crisis.
This crisis will either make him or break him.
Thanks for listening!
Frying pan? Where’s Suzy?
What I was trying to say is that I think it’s tragic that immigrants from the Middle East came here looking for the freedoms that this country affords… and now many of them are going home to countries full of violence and civil unrest because they fear for their safety HERE. 
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I know some people who are consumed to the point of near paralysis by the events of 9/11–I’m talking beyond the point of where I think the majority of the posters here are right now of contemplating, discussing, even arguing about this. The people I know are hardly able to function and deeply depressed…this is not directed at the posters here AT ALL…I am sure we all know of someone out there who is taking this exceptionally hard and needs our help to cope.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just to clarify - I, too, am learning a lot from this thread and my comment was not specifically directed at any of the posters. Last week, I was one of the seriously upset/depressed and, since I have no faith whatsoever in any form of psychotherapy, found - to paraphrase Podhajsky - My horses, my helpers…
Party on, dudes!
I am partial to the B’s
William Boyd, Larry Brown, Paul Bowles, Richard Bausch
also Joan Didion, Alice Munro, Mary Gaitskill
next to my bed, where I sometimes get a chance to read , is the Bill Steinkraus book, Boyd’s Armadillo, the latest Atlantic Monthly, a little book called What we have learned about technology from the Russian experience, my own book-in-the-editing process (a little teacher’s guide about child sexual abuse), the latest Spiegel and an overly dry article that my honey, Dr Hobson, wrote in which he proposes a framework for categorizing the types of relationships between democratic governments and progressive social movements.
hobson, intellectual show-off par excellence
Top Military Commanders Warn of Larger, Global War
John Edwards
Wednesday, Oct. 3, 2001
Two of America’s top former military commanders warn that America could quickly find itself in a global war.
In an exclusive interview as part of NewsMax’s Presidential Briefing series, Adm. Thomas Moorer and Gen. Jack Singlaub reveal several disturbing concerns about a major escalation in the months ahead.
Their interview, America on the Brink of Global War, is part of NewsMax’s Presidential Briefing series.
Both have unassailable credentials. Adm. Moorer served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the nation’s highest-ranking military official, and helped bring the Vietnam War to an end.
Gen. Singlaub is former chief of staff for U.S. forces in South Korea. In addition to serving as a field commander, he was also assigned to the CIA and is an expert on unconventional warfare.
Moorer and Singlaub have held combat command positions in World War II, Korea and Vietnam.
Both share the view that the likelihood of a greater war is strong, and fear that if several fronts opened up against the U.S. in hot spots like Taiwan and Korea, the results could be catastrophic for the United States.
“It’s not like any war we have been in before, but we have got to have it,” Adm. Moorer explains.
Moorer and Singlaub say the nature of this war will require several steps, with the first military moves aimed at eliminating terrorist cells.
But Moorer believes that the war will do the job only if we go after the nations that support terrorism, including Iraq, Iran and Syria.
“I think the war is going to broaden. I think that the president made it quite clear that this is a pure case of good vs. evil and those who want to live in peace must unite and eliminate those who want to kill one another,” Gen. Singlaub says.
He adds ominously, “We just have to recognize that it’s going to develop into a larger war and there are lots of people and nations involved.”
In “America on the Brink of Global War,” Moorer and Singlaub make several key points, the same ones they would tell the president if they were in the Pentagon today:
-
Focus on the Likelihood of a Bigger War. Both military commanders insist that while they would have Pentagon strategists working to deal with Osama bin Laden, the Pentagon’s main focus should be to prevent and prepare for a major war.
Singlaub explains: “We have to be thinking along those lines and not get ourselves committed in one area.” -
Possible Flashpoints: Taiwan and Korea. Moorer and Singlaub see these as strong possibilities for the outbreak of a larger war.
Noting the diminished size of the U.S. military, now 40 percent smaller than it was just 10 years ago, a country like China may make a play for Taiwan while American military resources are so focused in the Mideast.
Worse, North Korea may launch its long-awaited invasion of South Korea. More than 30,000 American troops still sit near the Korean Demilitarized Zone, and Gen. Singlaub, an expert on Korea, doubts U.S. forces could repel an armored invasion. The U.S. may have to use tactical nuclear weapons to stop an advance, he believes.
Moorer adds: “This is the whole point � if the U.S. focuses so much strength in one area,” one or more of America’s enemies may seize the opportunity to attack. -
Oil Kingdoms, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, at Risk. Despite the large U.S. buildup in the Middle East, both commanders believe there is little the U.S. could do to stop Saddam Hussein from invading and capturing Kuwait as he did in 1990. A similar threat exists to Saudi Arabia. Singlaub observed that during the Gulf War the U.S. had five divisions in Germany that were quickly moved to the region, with the air and naval support to move them there.
That isn’t true today, he said. By the time we mobilize to prevent an Iraqi offensive, it will be “too late.”
Moorer agrees. He thinks U.S. forces could eventually dislodge Hussein, but it would take much longer and the U.S. could expect heavy casualties this time. -
Secure the Panama Canal Now. Both veteran military experts advise the U.S. to immediately secure the Panama Canal. Moorer says the U.S. has no troops in Panama now, and we need to make arrangements with the Panamanian government to ensure there is no interruption of Navy movement between the Atlantic and Pacific.
Singlaub notes that any interruption by terrorists, or by the Chinese company that controls the canal, could have catastrophic consequences for U.S. forces in Asia if, say, South Korea was invaded. Both commanders say in such a scenario even a matter of days could prove critical in preserving thousands of American lives.
“We cannot afford to lose the most strategic waterway in the world to our enemies,” Gen. Singlaub says.
I once heard a statemwnt along the lines of…“I’m not sure how the third world war would be fought with, but the fourth would be fought with sticks and stones.”
