Um…give me a minute to make a big long cup of tea, take my contacts out so I can peer at the screen better and digest all that…
(Snowbird, pt, hobson, all y’all, help me out here!)
I would have said the same or similar until this morning.
An ABC.com news report indicates that Afghani citizens are embittered by the US rejection of their clerics’ ruling to allow Bin Laden to leave. They are 1) now more supportive of the Taleban (go figure); and 2) angry at the US for eliminating a chance for non-military involvement. The citizens interviewed take the latter as evidence of US hostility to Islam generally.
I can’t get the url to work, and also cannot cut and paste the article here so I am going to email it to Erin and hope she will help out by posting the pertinent sections (it’s long!).
IMO, the US must be (and I believe, will be) extremely careful in its response to the terrorist attack, not only for humanitarian reasons, but in its own interest, and in the interest of the global community.
Every international news report (and many American ones) I have read suggests that the US attempt to build a coalition against terrorism will be successful in direct proportion to the perception and reality of US actions as just, measured, principled, and in accordance with international law. Even countries most supportive of the US at this time are cautioning our president and our country not to lose sight of what makes America great by reacting in ways that will make the very problem we are trying to begin to eradicate worse.
The US has an enormous task ahead of it now, not only in its direct response to the terrorist attack on September 11, but in its avowed commitment to eliminate global terrorism. Listen carefully to the president when he says this will be a long haul, because it will be.
I think the speech was excellent. I also think peoples’ comments about speech patterns are coming from a kind of punchiness–we have all been, and still are, under a lot of strain–and should not be interpreted as serious attacks or criticism. Everyone wants the perpetrators brought to justice. Our country and our world is united in a virtually unprecedented way in response to the September 11 tragedy. Our actions now and in future cannot undo the tragedy, but may, in a way, provide a kind of redemption. There are many changes ahead of us all; I hope that the cooperation and empathy between people will last to become one of the good changes.
I don’t give a hoot about Hillary Clinton but the reality is she REPRESENTS & SERVES the people of NY and the calls coming in from people of all political persuasions to NY talk radios programs was overwhelmingly disappointment in her behavior. Fatigue? Rudy Giulliani should be flat out on the ground by now but he was as commanding in his strength and support as he was from day one and he’s been at the scene far more times than Hill has. I’ve been most impressed with those in office who have taken off the political gloves and put on the work gloves. It’s irrelevant which lever people pull - when America is attacked - all Americans must be defended.
This thread started with a sophomoric comment on how the president pronounces words - in the final analysis such a sad commentary on what an individual feels we need to focus or comment on at a time of such grave issues challenging our freedom and democracy.
For those who felt this was just a political debate - I would argue this has been a philosophical debate.
The following article deals with the “Islamic” regime instituted by the Taleban.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,7-2001325483,00.html
And from what I have read, this article has omitted a few things.
I’m not sure what grievance against Buddhist culture the Taleban has.
I’m not sure American/Western policies have anything to do with the actions outlined in the above article.
Edited to be sure to mention that I do NOT believe this reflects Islam or Islamic culture in general.
[This message was edited by NP Fisher on Sep. 25, 2001 at 09:35 AM.]
pt - do you think I haven’t been crystal clear in stating my beliefs, understanding and conceptual grasp about our foreign policy? Tell me what was unclear, and I shall attempt to remedy. I’m not one to sit around and not speak my mind, that’s for sure…
As for Snowbird, and her right to believe in her religion, political party and elected president, god bless her, it is her right… But to preach unity and standing behind the elected leadership, while taking a backhanded slap at those who voted for ANY democrat, based on the assumption that only republicans are fit to run the country… Guess I’m mostly grateful a republican won the election - hate to see where all this professed unity would be if a dem was in the white house!
Probably the young things on this board have no clue who this Fabio dude is anyway, lol…!
And heidi, don’t worry, i bow before your superior spelling ability - come to think of it, this spelling obsession probably reveals our aged status as well…
Snowbird, you seem to have missed the point - no one is “hung up” on the accents or speeches or any other aspect of GW. People are just commenting on something they noticed.
Since this whole thread started I have yet to understand why some of you think it is wrong for someone to say “they didn’t understand so and so because of their accent” or that the “President’s speeches aren’t always the best”.
Its a comment, not a condemnation 
Have YOU ever heard the Canadian Prime Minsiter Jean Chretien speak?? Now there’s an accent for you. I don’t understand half of what he says and don’t like listening to him, but it doesn’t mean I don’t support him.
Some of you just can’t seem to wrap your heads around this one, and are getting all worked up over nothing.
People will always pick apart their leaders for good or bad, regardless of the circumstances. Its human nature. So to tell us we’re all so sad and misguided because we notice little things about GB is rather ridiculous IMO.
For the record, I haven’t always agreed with his choice of ties lately 
People just might be willing to spend if the didn’t see their coworkers being laid off left and right. Our joblessness rate is at its highest in 9 years.
If you have a job that you make say, $30,000 a year, you probably don’t have huge savings, not a lot of stock, and likely won’t get a big severence package. Unemployment pays @ 50% of what you make for 6 months, the job market is tight. That person is going to just be trying to pay their mortgage or rent. That isn’t selfish, it’s common sense.
For the still employed coworker, you become nervous that you are next. You decide your beater of a car has a few years left, and sock away some money lest you are next.
It’s pretty common sense. What do people think, with so many jobs being cut people are going to go out and spend $$$$ in their free time?
The witchy witch witch of south central NC.
I agree with the prayers part…but I disagree about not talking about it. Why can’t we discuss national affairs? [although many thanks to Erin for letting this go on so long, perhaps we should start a new thread free of peeps and Fabio 
] We are capable of having somewhat intelligent discussions on matters of international importance, and this is well, a BIG event. Most of us frequent the board at least once a day, and to have to ‘tiptoe’ around a gigantic purple elephant in the room, so to speak, would be really weird. We are at war–it’s unfair to force us to not talk about something so major and life-altering.
Just my two cents.
~KBird
that armed and trained Bin Laden? Guess that wasn’t such a good idea after all…ooops…:eek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jl:
perhaps we should re-examine our national policy of propping up oppressive dictators. As examples I offer:
- The Shah of Iran
- Marcos
- The regime of terror instituted by the Dulles brother on the people of Guatemala.
- The royal family of Kuwait.
Why are we always so surprised when extremists who oust said dictators don?t like us ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
More rates to look at. In the USA it appears we have made great progress DECREASING the IMR since the 1950’s in spite of more drug and alcohol abuse by pregnant mothers. I left school district work as the second wave of crack baby’s became “of age” so I was surprised to see the low number.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/datawh/statab/pubd/hus98t23.htm
Some Canadian proviences have very high IMR stats…
http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/People/Health/health21.htm
And for country’s IMR rankings look at this link. It puts things into perspective.
http://www.bartleby.com/151/a28.html
SLW
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
I do defend your (generic) right to post inane and thoughtless things on this or any other BB…that’s what makes this Country great. I however do not have to agree with them or decline from opining upon them for the same reasons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed 100% and right back atcha, babe!
Gosh, harmony is a beeeyutiful thing
Erin, agreed with you 100% If people didn’t stop and pause before following their leaders, I doubt that tea would have ever ended up in the harbor. Nobody said a) they were always right and b) you have to agree. And as many have pointed out, disagreeing with your government is NOT the same thing as not supporting it. Although that distinction is NOT made in countries like Afghanistan…
Funny thing, though… There has not been one statement/action made by our government regarding the events of September 11 that I disagree with to date, I just don’t like anyone implying that I should (goose?) step in line and blindly accept ALL things coming from the mouth of elected officials, as though they were infallible. They are NOT, and part of MY job as a citizen in a democracy is to be educated to the issues, to understand the issues, and when necessary, to challenge the government that represents ME as it relates to those issues.
If you like to believe in the infallibility of your government, may I suggest a good old fashion monarchy or perhaps a dictatorship?
Hey, IlonaE, look back on page 6 or so… there was actually a pretty good discussion of the “grave issues” going on before someone showed up and decided we needed to focus on how the President pronounces words. And here’s a hint… it wasn’t me.
BTW, I’m glad your thesaurus got a good workout while you came up with a bevy of insults to lob my way. Sorry to disappoint you, but I have better things to do than lob them back.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I must spent the remainder of this beautiful Sunday afternoon returning to my appointed duties of destroying the free world.
Let’s see, first, I must go exercise my right to free speech and say that I hope the US can find some way to deal with this that does not involve bombing the bejeezus out of Afghanistan. Oh yes, expressing that sentiment most certainly will lead to the end of the free world as we know it.
Secondly, I must attempt to find humor in a serious situation. We ALL know that is TOTALLY unacceptable!
Third, I must be willing to recognize that our President is human, and as such, he has faults… surely a harbinger of the end of civilization. After all, those guys in the powdered wigs who invented this government only put in those checks and balances for fun. All politicians are perfect, so we don’t really need them.
Fourth… hmm. Well, I’m not sure what’s left. Oral sex?
Seriously, folks, I was enjoying the discussion for a while here before it went into a righteous tailspin. How about we go back to issues? If Congress can unite across the aisle these days, certainly the BB can.
For starters… I flew from Baltimore to Chicago and back this weekend. (On United 757s, no less.) Airports and airplanes are strange places to be these days. We hit some rough air leaving Chicago this morning, and I swear, the woman sitting behind me was hyperventilating she was so scared. Just from some little old bumpy clouds. 
Did anyone hear the accounts in the news of people who “looked Middle Eastern” being asked to leave flights for which they had purchased tickets, because the crew or passengers were “uncomfortable” with them being there?
While I admit I’d probably be uncomfortable as hell sitting next to a young man speaking Arabic on an airplane these days, I like to think I’d suck it up, reaffirm my faith in this country and in human nature, and say hello to the fellow and offer him my peanuts.
But I think I’d be in the vast minority…
I really feel for the Middle Eastern citizens of this country right now. Talk about out of the frying pan, into the fire…
What a thread!
I’m just back after 4 days at a horsemanship clinic. Got back on the big guy after 18 months of illness and accidents - no-one was discussing news or world terrorism, we were all more interesting in getting a “soft feel” (nothing to do with sex) and learning more about selves and horses and the interrelationship.
It was a lovely time out of time.
The world and its problems are still here, of course, but the mental and emotional break has left me feeling much more able to live in it without the depression of the prior week.
I recommend such a break highly.
pt - I could try to tell you who I am and what my leanings are, but I thought I would use what I have said on this thread, by way of explanation.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I confess, I have to wait for the written transcript when he speaks - something about that man’s voice that makes my spine crawl away!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, first we have established that the President’s voice irritates me. This would be his voice, not his politics. I probably have opinions on those, but I don’t think I’ve voiced them on this thread. What I have said (over and over) is that there is not one position on this issue that I am in disagreement with this Administration on.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I did watch 2 hours of political commentary afterwords and read the speech, and it was indeed a good speech.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
See? This is DMK agreeing with the speech… made by the Pres…
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That was my concern to (had that vision of the hydra in my head), but a coworker saw a very recent interview with Colin Powell, who has been stressing equal parts military, social, political and economic approaches to the problem, so I feel a lot better about that aspect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This was where I had reservations about a strictly military approach, but was very impressed with this guy by the name of Colin Powell who apparently has a grasp of things and is fairly highly placed.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>just think of us as true believers in the constitution. You know… the one that protects free speech?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is the part where I express a deep love and appreciation for the constitution. I don’t think this is derision for free speech, but maybe I am just not sublimbinal enough?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If people didn’t stop and pause before following their leaders, I doubt that tea would have ever ended up in the harbor. Nobody said a) they were always right and b) you have to agree. And as many have pointed out, disagreeing with your government is NOT the same thing as not supporting it. Although that distinction is NOT made in countries like Afghanistan.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
More of that darned respect for free speech again! Now here’s the subtle point. I have not actually disagreed with our government, but I respect the right of others to do so. It ain’t easy being part of a democracy. You have to work at it.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you like to believe in the infallibility of your government, may I suggest a good old fashion monarchy or perhaps a dictatorship?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actual this is a little bit of a political leaning of mine. I think our country was founded on the assumption that it is our duty to be a part of our governement, and to be accountable for its actions, and to affect those actions whenever we think they are unjust. I think there are words to that effect in the Declaration of Independence.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We think it’s just dandy that we live in a country where you are free to speak your mind. Free to change it too. Of course true believers never do change their minds, and generally scare the hell out of all the people in the middle. Of course we understand Left Leaning True Believers scare the hell out of us too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is another one of those political leaning type posts. Yup, I think I am part of the Middle, although I think other BB?ers might disagree. But maybe I’m in the middle because I like to sit on the fence?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I personally would like to think that one could be religious and a have a deep respect for one’s god, without believing that said god might sanction a nation’s or a machine’s actions… …Maybe they support this action fully, and to the bottom of their patriotic heart. Maybe they are deeply hurt, outraged, grief struck and angered at this horrific action against innocent people and our nation. And maybe, as we, the United States and our allies in this effort go forth and do what must be done, they think that just maybe, their god is deeply disappointed that it has come to this point. Maybe they think their god mourns the loss of all life killed by another human being, not just those that died on September 11. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is DMK on religion, or at least as it relates to religion and this issue. Not exactly what you asked for, but I thought it rounded out the picture nicely.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Afghan Recent History in 60 words or less…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>grey areas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, you are just going to have to go read these, because they are too darn long to repost, but I assure you it is a pretty straightforward recitation of the facts, that even ole’ Henry would be hard pressed to disagree with (especially the part about preaching communism at home - Henry lived for that moment.) Who’s Henry you ask? We will get to that.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It’s not that I don’t think our government is keenly aware of these issues. In fact Colin Powell is probably one of the best people to be Secretary of State at this time. It’s just that we are on a very shaky and tenuous path at this moment in our history. We have no choice but to be on this path - the events of September 11 have clearly shown us that, but that makes it no less dangerous.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
More praise for that clever Powell guy. Just who IS this dude and why does DMK respect his judgement?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Foreign policy that is made with blinkers on can and will cost lives. Such foreign policy is referred to as “folly” (try Barbara Tuchman sometime - she has this “folly” thing down pat).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
DMK on foreign policy and Tuchman. Tuchman was pretty well repsected in her day, but I will concede she probably runs a tad to the left in her writings. Nevertheless she managed to win two pulitzer prizes for her historical texts, so she is at least well-researched. Not sure what that says about me, other than I read well researched books.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How can facing reality be called fear? How could one think that by understanding and accepting the possible ramifications of our actions we are looking for excuses?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This has got to be that kumbaya moment you were referencing. Up until your post, I thought I was the least f’ing kumbaya-er out there. I stand corrected.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As for a Nation, Nations are different. According to Hans Morganthau, one of the “fathers of international policy” and someone I place a deep amount of respect in (this will shock all those who think I am a total tree hugging liberal, since ole Hans is somewhere to the right of Henry Kissinger ).
Morganthau establishes that Nations are not moral, in the accepted sense. They may act morally, but they do that for pragmatic reasons (i.e., they will follow a moral course if it is also the pragmatic course). Nations have ONE guiding principle, and that is that they act in their best interests, and to the extent their power allows.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So you were looking for a foreign policy philosophy, eh? It was pretty much summed up right here, but I can see where someone who was not quite the student of foreign policy might have missed it. Yup, I’m a HUGE fan of Morganthau (Politics Among Nations), who in addition to being a reasonably intelligent man, also laid out a policy doctrine to follow in the absence of a cold war (some 40 years ahead of its time), and was also the mentor of most of the republican secretaries of state back in yesteryear, most notably Kissinger (I told you we would get to Henry ). What HM was NOT, was just about anything to do with the politics of the left at that time (LBJ, Kennedy, etc.). Although since Brezinski was also one of his students, we are left to wonder if he regretted the job he did with that particular student or had a weakness for the Carter Administration politics.
Last but not least, I did a quick check on the books by my nightstand, because I think that says a lot about a person. Here you go:
A Fire in the Lake - Fitzgerald (the definitive text on Vietnam)
The March of Folly - Tuchman (anyone who can draw parallels between the British occupation of the colonies and the American occupation of Vietnam is just plain gifted)
A Betrayal of Trust - Garrett (I?d say she sits a little to the left )
Guns, Germs & Steel - Diamond (What a great book on why certain populations hold power and others don?t, and doesn’t have a damn thing to do with politics)
The Elegant Universe - Greene (who cares about his politics, the man can explain quantum physics)
A March to Madness - Feinstein (college basketball and the ACC ? is there anything finer?)
Kick Ass ? Hiaasen (ooooh, do they get any further to the left?)
Age and Guile Beat Youth, Innocence and a Bad Haircut - O’Rourke (ooooh, do they get any further to the right?)
Blue Ridge - Pearson (if you love southern literature, you love pearson)
Hopefully this helped clarify my views.
Le Carre? And I thought I read heavy stuff!!
Still a Ludlum fan, through and through…
reading about the hawala system of monetary exchange brings to mind an Indiana Jones scenario…I was fascinated to learn that this system has been in use for thousands of years, and that it predates modern banking systems…now…that sounds really stupid, doesn’t it, I mean something old is BOUND to predate something modern, right? Going back for a brain adjustment…
that Hobson said to still spend money, just more altruistically and not selfishly.
Betsy (in MD)
Also called Shell-shock in WWI and Battle Fatigue in WWII.
Snowbird, I agree with most of you last post. Now is the time to buckle down and go on with our lives, changed as they may be in the coming days.
But, don’t think that all the gallant warriors in past wars didn’t suffer trauma from what they saw and did. I don’t know whether the fact that they didn’t talk about it was good or bad, but I know that if someone I love is suffering from something like that, I want to help, and it is easier to help if you aren’t shut away from the problem. By not talking about their stress, our warriors of the past may have thought that they had kept the horrors of war from their loved ones, but, I wonder how it affected all of them in less direct ways.
I would hope, that if our people involved in this war suffer from the mental anguish that people have suffered from in the past, they would reach out for all the help that is available.
the policies of constructive social and economic engagement, predicated on the existance of legitimate, politically stable regimes sensitive to human rights would have a better chance of success given our shrinking globe
Yes, good point. Big problem though, how do we predicate legitimate, politically stable regimes sensitive to human rights? We have a terrible track record on supporting various regimes which have turned out to be at least as bad as what they replaced. And not all nations are at the same stage of political development - what works for some doesn’t work for others, and many still put sensitivity to human rights way down on the list of priorities. Just look at the Taliban and the Northern Alliance, both. No guarantees.
That’s why I truly believe that we need to step back and out, defend our own borders and citizens, and let other nations figure out their own policies. I really don’t care if Arab nations are willing to drape their women in the living room curtains, so long as they can’t impose that style on me. That may sound like NIMBY, but really, it’s allowing self-determination to cultures which differ from our own.
Of course, we take the chance that some of the nations are entering an imperialist phase of development, which would pose another problem…
As for cheap labor and cheap oil - yup, there might be a change in our lifestyle on purchased goods, but we tend to forget the oil producing nations want to sell their product as much as other nations want to buy it…the economic fallout isn’t entirely predictable. Except, maybe we might restore a good system of public transportation - even the RR’s - and develop alternative energy sources. Wouldn’t that be nice!
Of course, the problem we’re in right now has a great deal to do with breaching our borders, attacking our citizens, and the preaching of a policy of eliminating western civilization, esp. the U.S. Regardless of how this got started, it doesn’t seem that anyone can expect us to lie down and die because OBL thinks we should.
My blue-sky thinking conveniently leaps over the present mess to some sort of international equilibrium to examine ways of handling things differently in the future.
Gosh, I dunno any more than anyone else does - just groping for ideas here -
I am DAM’ sick of our so-called internationalism, though, which has done little for the mass of our citizens, doesn’t appear to have stabilized anything, and has made us a hissing and a byword in parts of the world. I’d really just rather stay home and miss the party!
