Was your fresh or frozen? Is there anyone who had a fresh breeding last year that is verified to be Capone?
AHHA said they had 5 confirmed as Cartel plus now my 2. So that is 7. It looks like KWPN has at least one. I am not sure if the one tanderson knows about is a separate one. I reached out to another woman on facebook that is waiting on results from fresh for 2 born this year.
The best way to answer your question would be to sign up for a 1-day pass for Dataquest and do some research on performance records. www.arabianhorses.org and click to Dataquest. 1-day pass is $9.95 for 24 hours and you can search to your hearts content.
While I am no expert, especially for Canadian horses, I would have to say that it’s a pretty undistinguished pedigree. The horses I recognize are pretty far back on the page. But no way to know for sure about performance without the facts.
As for why someone would do this… some people really don’t understand DNA, genetics, etc. Maybe she thought that having the son of the desired horse would be good enough, or the Arabian wouldn’t count, or ???
What a mess.
I worked with a horse with Bangard lines but he wasn’t anything special. Late teens and sound. Solid and not very typey at all. He had a great work ethic though. I don’t see any lines that stand out to me and but I haven’t been involved in that world since the late 90’s. Nothing close up looks like anything special.
I’m (almost) speechless. How could anyone do something like this? I can’t believe that a SO would think it didn’t matter, I just can’t.
Someone reached out to me this afternoon, they have a KWPN confirmed not Capone filly. I left KWPN a voicemail to get back with me on the number of confirmed they have. I have done some preliminary research on the Arabian lines. The Deodars seemed to produce dressage sport type horses. Bangard seems to be well liked and people did dressage, western and competitive trail with his progeny. That would cover most of the dam’s dam line. I found the breeder of the dam’s sire on facebook and left a message asking for more info and pics. All of the lines seem to live into their 30s, so they must be hardy horses. I am trying to find a bright spot in this mess.
I still have not heard from the SO. I paid for my fees via VISA via Paypal. I will involve those companies as a fraud case if she doesn’t get back to me shortly. Anyone else affected, please contact me, I am compiling a list if further action is needed. I am a small breeder, only 3 born this year and none coming next year. With 2/3 of my foals being mutts, I am out a lot of money and won’t let this slide.
No one should let this slide if they can help it. This is gross negligence, at best.
Maybe some of the Cartel foals would be eligible for some of the Arabian Sport Horse Alliance award programs, as they are 25% Arabian. I think that fits the rules… Just a thought.
it sounds like a terrible situation though… “mix up” is a polite description.
Cartel does look smaller. Really cute, but not what anyone was planning on. Maybe with only 25% Arabian blood you all will end up with over 16 hand horses of a more Warmblood type. Especially out of larger Warmblood mares.
Wow ! So sorry for everyone who needed up with a “mutt”. Has anyone talked to Dr Juan Samper about this? Did he do the collections or did another vet or stallion owner themselves?
P.
Nothing wrong with a “mutt”.
Unless you have carefully planned and paid for a breeding with a Holsteiner stallion and have instead had your mare bred to a half Arab son of that Holsteiner stallion. 
Then, for all intents and purposes the get is worthless for what was paid for and intended.
Do you suspect a conspiracy? Why does the frozen semen belong to Capone while (so far) the fresh has been semen from the SO’s half Arab stallion?
For those of you that ended up with a Cartel instead of a Capone, so sorry for the unfortunate surprise. I spoke to a friend of mine who is in the arabian world, and she said the damline on Cartel’s Arab side is quite good for sport, very well bred, sound and hardy horses. The sire side she said is more off of the grid, but says that in the arabian world, you could see so much worse in terms of movement, soundness and jump-killer contributors. Hope that helps.
First off, I am so sorry for those that ended up with Cartels, not what you wanted for your mares. Giid luck with that SO getting any resolution.
Again, realize it’s not what you wanted but…you certainly don’t need to buy a pass to research the bottom part of that damline, plenty on Google including PICTURES.
I grew up in So Cal. in horsey areas (never could afford one) and went to Cal Poly Pomona which maintains an Arabian herd as part of the Kellog bequest of the land. I personally knew some of those horses and they were bred and built to use. It’s way back 4-5 gens but if it helps lessen the pain of being screwed and possibly defrauded…humor me a bit.
Going back to the top of the damline, you have Cytrys* a Polish import. He was bred to Silver Song by Bask* also Polish. This is important because the studs at that time in the Polish studbooks had to go through inspections and tests just like WBs so brought useablity and sometimes more size then what was common over here at that time. You can easily Google Bask* (who admittedly was on the smallish size) for lots of successful offspring who, in turn, produced many successful offspring. I knew quite a few and rode some full and halfbreds with him as sire or up close.
Going on down you can see Fadjur, hugely successful as a sire of using horses. I rode several of his, again full and crossbreds. He was bred to Bint Fadara, a daughter of Bint Sahara. She’s a generation past the chart but…that one you really need to Google, spectacular pictures. Probably still the all time premiere producing mare on the Arab books. I met her at Frank McCoys sharing an oak shaded paddock with 2 or 3 of her mega champion producing daughters. Stunningly pretty as they were, they were USING horses that were often crossed with TBs and QHs back in the day to produce more of the same.
Like I said, not what you wanted and well back but if you had to get it, that’s not a bad damline in a breed that traditionally treasures the mares. Might help you find a buyer for those if you don’t care to keep them.
Thank you for the information on the Arabian bloodlines, that is helpful. It does look like the Arabian Sport Horse Alliance will award points for:
Arab-bred (documented 25% or more Arabian or Shagya-Arabian lineage in the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] three generations)
One of the more frustrating parts of this situation is that I spend countless hours researching bloodlines and breed for temperament. I am trying to be a responsible breeder and don’t want to add to the glut of backyard horses that are posted constantly on craigslist and facebook. At least with a well planned breeding, even if the foal doesn’t end up being the superstar desired, it should have enough talent and the mind to be a solid amateur mount. This becomes a crapshoot when using a backyard stallion of mixed lineage, especially an F1 cross.
Edited, I just found this photo of Cartel’s dam’s sire side going back to Gharib. He appears twice. [ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“large”,“data-attachmentid”:9911852}[/ATTACH]
I was the only BWP breeder with a Capone I foal for 2017. My colt was the only one DNA tested for BWP. Therefore, there cannot be “several BWP” impostors.
I cannot address the rumor of AHHA or KWPN as I have no access to their records or DNA test.
My frozen straws were from Westgen on Stallion Owner’s direction.
“Unfortunate surprise”??
What a diplomatic label to attach to gross negligence, or an unforgivable fraud.
It is one or the other, any way you look at it.
Please. I was not trying to be diplomatic. I think it’s terrible for the mare owners.
I’m sure you do and I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. An “unfortunate surprise” I’m sure it was. The phrase just struck me as an incredible understatement.
He was in training with a friend of mine as a young horse if you want any more info
I think the SO owes WAY more than this to the innocent breeders. All vet costs, plus the difference in value between what was expected and what they got. And, if there was a veterinarian doing the collection and labelling it wrong, go after their malpractice insurance.
Hence, why I said it’s a START. I was by no means saying that that would make things right. Frankly I’m shocked that this isn’t being more broadly discussed, but I can understand mare owners not wanting to kick up too much of a fuss until they’ve attempted to obtain some kind of restitution from the SO, whatever that may be (if it is even possible).
There may very well be additional mare owners that bred to Capone this year that may be surprised when they get their DNA results back next year…I hope this doesn’t continue for another year :no:
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